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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ebscreen on October 15, 2013, 02:20:37 PM
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No, not asking for a Challenger 3 in your stocking.
There's a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist that I wish did. Some of it may even be feasible,
so I thought I'd start this list and see, A, if anyone else is interested in the same thing, and B, if
maybe we can cajole some of the manufacturers into making them.
First and foremost is a non-water-soluble blockout that can be reclaimed like emulsion. Obviously
for printing with WB/DC inks. Right now we use emulsion, but that requires long drying times, exposure,
and in some cases, hardening. You can't tape the bottom of discharge screens (well you can, if you like disaster)
so something to block out reg marks and (god forbid!) pinholes would be nice.
Next, kind of figures in with the first item, is if FilmMaker could print the registration color (for reg marks) in
Cyan or Yellow or something. We need the reg marks to line up the film on the FPU, but typically don't need them
when printing. Right now we cut them off, rendering the film useless for further use. Having reg marks in a color
that won't develop on screen would be awesome.
That's all I've got for now, though there's man more. Feel free to add your own.
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I thought I saw block out pens or you could use nail polish which come in a pencil like applicator
For the registration marks why not change your registration color in your program ?
Roger
RT screen designs
Www.rtscreendesigns. Com
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Ok I will add one.
A database of bad customers. Guys that don't pay, that are pain in the ass, one that quote all the time but never order, ones that after the job is printed complain about anything and everything to try to get a discount. It would be a industry website that all screen printers could post to.
I have about five I could add to the list right now.
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Kiwo Blockout WR
Been using it for a few months and works very well. Ran 1,000+ with no problem.
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I thought I saw block out pens or you could use nail polish which come in a pencil like applicator
For the registration marks why not change your registration color in your program ?
Nail polish doesn't breathe, and eventually does what tape does. (discharge seeps around it, making odd
discharge marks and ruining garments)
The printed color of the reg mark would have to be different, not in the art itself. RIPs treat everything as black.
Ok I will add one.
A database of bad customers. Guys that don't pay, that are pain in the ass, one that quote all the time but never order, ones that after the job is printed complain about anything and everything to try to get a discount. It would be a industry website that all screen printers could post to.
I have about five I could add to the list right now.
Dude no foolin'. We're pretty lucky with not having the after the fact guys, but we do have a few effing weirdos that request 17 quotes once a month or so,
never ordered anything. One guy calls just about every week, and after getting his estimate says "this is great, I'll call back later today to place the order!" and never has. This industry attracts some strange ones.
Kiwo Blockout WR
Been using it for a few months and works very well. Ran 1,000+ with no problem.
Thanks! I though I remembered someone mentioning one, I'll have to see if I can get it in.
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Is it just the cheap nail polish I'm using but ours doesn't like to let go when reclaiming.
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mine would be more business.....I got tumble weeds going on over here.
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Both great ideas.
That Kiwo blockout sounds great. You could eliminate post expo potentially.
We do buy the blue blockout pens and they work fine for WB.
I too would jump at a chance to print reg marks in another, non resolving color, we use them to pin up but have not used them on press in a very long time.
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Is it just the cheap nail polish I'm using but ours doesn't like to let go when reclaiming.
Mine has always blasted right out, especially from the squeegee side (since it doesn't penetrate through much).
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Next, kind of figures in with the first item, is if FilmMaker could print the registration color (for reg marks) in
Cyan or Yellow or something. We need the reg marks to line up the film on the FPU, but typically don't need them
when printing. Right now we cut them off, rendering the film useless for further use. Having reg marks in a color
that won't develop on screen would be awesome.
I have thought about this for a while, but we just changed our printer over to all black. If there was a easy way to do this though I would change a channel back. But I was thinking a Yellow may be hard to see on our PRU and if I'm not mistaken we had Cyan print on a film and it developed mildly. Either way if someone could figure this out and add it to the RIPs that would be a real nice selling point. We usually print details about the film/job on the film also, so this is another thing we end up blocking out.
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Is it just the cheap nail polish I'm using but ours doesn't like to let go when reclaiming.
Mine has always blasted right out, especially from the squeegee side (since it doesn't penetrate through much).
Ditto Frog. Sometimes we need to adjust the nozzle to the fine point though, but from the squeegee side for sure!
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I'd like a floodbar or even better a squeegee type blade for our fill stroke/flood stroke that when there is no longer ink in the well it will make some sort of a sound so the operator can hear that he's running low on ink. Once every few weeks one of my guys will come to my desk with a shirt that was pulled from the press that is missing ink in the middle of the print area.
Would you guys believe me if I told you this happened with a one color black ink on red shirts, ON THE MANUAL PRESS the other day? How in the hell does that happen? Out of all the dumbest things I've ever seen that takes the cake. He flooded, didn't notice, printed, didn't notice, lifted the screen and apparently didn't look at the print and didn't notice, then pulled the shirt!!! I'm still amazed by that one. #DUMB
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Yeah, manually that's pretty bad Alan. Though to be honest, I've printed pallets manually.
I'd say %90 of our mis-prints are running out of ink. I've often considered security cams for each head.
Tony posted one of those giant reflective globes awhile back...
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Dude no foolin'. We're pretty lucky with not having the after the fact guys, but we do have a few effing weirdos that request 17 quotes once a month or so,
never ordered anything. One guy calls just about every week, and after getting his estimate says "this is great, I'll call back later today to place the order!" and never has. This industry attracts some strange ones.
This is likely another shop or a print broker who doesnt want to do the pricing work themselves. I would tell them to freak off for wasting your time.
We had one of these bug us about quotes and ask all kinds of detailed info about inks and methods etc. On the fourth time without getting any business I explained we weren't in the business of quoting, we were in the business of printing, and we would not talk to them again until they placed an order. Never heard from them again and could care less.
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First assumption was that he was from another shop, but he's actually sent art, it's his designs.
A startup clothing line.
In that vein, I would warn anyone to stay away from any charity based in Northern California.
Particularly any involving, get this, helping sea creatures.
Pretty sure the worlds a$$hole factory is located in Marin county.
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Regardless, at a certain point I would tell someone off if they were wasting my time with quotes that never turn into jobs. That time isn't trivial.
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Is it just the cheap nail polish I'm using but ours doesn't like to let go when reclaiming.
Another thought Gilligan, WE are talking about getting the polish off screens.... My guess is you are having a hard time getting it off your nails after the weekend ;D
A startup clothing line.
There is your answer right there.
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Is it just the cheap nail polish I'm using but ours doesn't like to let go when reclaiming.
Another thought Gilligan, WE are talking about getting the polish off screens.... My guess is you are having a hard time getting it off your nails after the weekend ;D
A startup clothing line.
There is your answer right there.
BaZing! Guess I had that one coming after the brown box joke.
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I'd like a floodbar or even better a squeegee type blade for our fill stroke/flood stroke that when there is no longer ink in the well it will make some sort of a sound so the operator can hear that he's running low on ink. Once every few weeks one of my guys will come to my desk with a shirt that was pulled from the press that is missing ink in the middle of the print area.
Would you guys believe me if I told you this happened with a one color black ink on red shirts, ON THE MANUAL PRESS the other day? How in the hell does that happen? Out of all the dumbest things I've ever seen that takes the cake. He flooded, didn't notice, printed, didn't notice, lifted the screen and apparently didn't look at the print and didn't notice, then pulled the shirt!!! I'm still amazed by that one. #DUMB
Winged flood bars do whistle when dry but if you can't see a dry screen on a manual who is gonna listen to a flood bar?
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Heat set graphic inks that are more like plastisol in terms of curing. I realize that UV inks are sort of what I am looking for, but I already have a conveyor dryer that puts out heat and I am not really interested in buying another conveyor dryer and another set of screens to deal with the thinness of the UV ink.
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Winged flood bars do whistle when dry but if you can't see a dry screen on a manual who is gonna listen to a flood bar?
I can hear a dry-flood across the shop while next to the running embroidery machine with a phone in one ear. Luckily both my printers are pretty good about keeping ink on the screens too, but it sure sucks when head # 4 goes dry and you have like 5 colours after it and have to double print a carousel full of shirts to fix them and 90% of the print is bulletproof and the middle is still a little lighter, drives me @&%$ing nuts.
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My wish list?
It's short:
1) Standards.
No more mystery. Industry wide standards for color, registration systems, substrate suitability, etc etc.
Offset and digital printing has had this sh*t down for decades. Heck we stole (and for the most part badly implemented) their color standards.
You can arrive at a result fifty different ways at fifty different screen printing shops. It's never a question of what, it's always a question of how. Gimme standards.
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Probably (definitely?) never going to happen. Unfortunately opinions and sometimes egos (including my own) will always muddy the waters. To be fair to our industry however, there are far more interdependant variables than offset or digital. Sure, we have Pantone for color reference, however, aside from Union Tru-tone process inks, no SWOP standards to adhere to. With DC and WB inks we still don't have reliable formulation and that can change due to substrate. As can mesh count selection and tension, which in turn may change squeegee parameters; which include but are not limited to composition, durometer, supported height, pressure, angle of attack and speed. Which may chage due to ink rheolgy and viscosity. Which may change all of the above and far more. Which may change print sequence and flash options. Which include time, temperature, height, and the very nature of the unit itself. And all of the above and more is image specific.
Example, At Marc Eckos shop in NJ they were stacking gels and HDs like crazy. We'd get it perfect, using rasta bars and tri-locs etc. Problem was with four flashes on each auto the ink rheology and viscosity broke down and many prints colapsed like a bad souffle after about an hour. The variables had changed causing the other variables that were dependant upon them to consequently fail.
All that said it is of course important to establish a structure within each shop that is tried and true and proven to yield predictable results within in your shop. Our friend Dave, as with others, is a huge proponent of this. So here in this forum we can seek advice and opinions and that is obviously and usually helpful.
But that just muddies the waters even further doesn't it?
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I thought I saw block out pens or you could use nail polish which come in a pencil like applicator
For the registration marks why not change your registration color in your program ?
Nail polish doesn't breathe, and eventually does what tape does. (discharge seeps around it, making odd
discharge marks and ruining garments)
The printed color of the reg mark would have to be different, not in the art itself. RIPs treat everything as black.
Ahhh mist my discharge has been 100 or less so this is good to know. I see your Rip point, for 80% of the stuff I run straight from Corel with no issues. Thanks for making it clear to me.
Ok I will add one.
A database of bad customers. Guys that don't pay, that are pain in the ass, one that quote all the time but never order, ones that after the job is printed complain about anything and everything to try to get a discount. It would be a industry website that all screen printers could post to.
I have about five I could add to the list right now.
Dude no foolin'. We're pretty lucky with not having the after the fact guys, but we do have a few effing weirdos that request 17 quotes once a month or so,
never ordered anything. One guy calls just about every week, and after getting his estimate says "this is great, I'll call back later today to place the order!" and never has. This industry attracts some strange ones.
Kiwo Blockout WR
Been using it for a few months and works very well. Ran 1,000+ with no problem.
Thanks! I though I remembered someone mentioning one, I'll have to see if I can get it in.
Ahhh most my runs are short and I run. 80% of films without a different rip so I see now why my answer was overly simple, thanks for the education. Always learning
Roger
RT screen designs
Www.rtscreendesigns. Com
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my biggest:
A solvent dishwasher. A place I can put all of my squeegees, floodbars, ink knives, mixing trays and so on in and get them all cleaned. This is more important for ink knives frankly, but something that would take 15-20 minutes maybe to clean ink off a load of stuff. I am a huge fan of automation, something that an employee can start, walk away from and come back to them ready to use. Something similar for screens would be great too, i know they exist, but the price tag is just a little too high for most shops.
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Sometimes you can hear when a screen is dry but most of the time you don't hear it at our shop. Maybe it has something to do with our fill/flood techniques, emulsion, ink, etc. My guys probably wouldn't notice it anyway if we did have something that was loud enough, they aren't very observant.
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My wish list would this....
#1
A screen print super supply store, where I can buy all my supplies in one place all brands of inks, emulsions, screen's etc.
#2
A T shirt supply house a few miles down the road from us so I can just go pick up our orders.
#3
This dam Anatol auto of mine had a green light to tell me when table is in the right position to lock the table, instead of me eyeballing the forks and being off just a little and hearing that banging sound.
#4
Customers that believe White and black inks are real printable colors
Darryl
PS more to come later LOL
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Sometimes you can hear when a screen is dry but most of the time you don't hear it at our shop. Maybe it has something to do with our fill/flood techniques, emulsion, ink, etc. My guys probably wouldn't notice it anyway if we did have something that was loud enough, they aren't very observant.
I'd +1 the earlier comment about winged floods, but ours aren't winged and I can hear a screen that's out of ink thirty feet away on press here.
Of course, that doesn't keep people from out of ink misprinting, so I guess we need some sort of invention.... perhaps involving some sort of machinery that kicks people in the butt? ;)
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Darryl, I am with you on #1. We will have to discuss who gets the royalties on the idea, because I have been thinking about trying to do something like that(even though I know NOTHING about making a website or the supply side of things) for a while. It would be great, but would have to have no more than a 2 day ship. I think why it hasn't been done is from my understanding the bigger companies don't want someone selling the competition in the same venue. It would be harder to push company "A's" products when you also sell Company "B", "C" and "D". All with very little differences. When was the last time you saw a Chevy, Ford, GMC, Cadillac, Toyota, Dodge and KIA dealership all under one roof? It is too bad because I think it would only benefit the end user(us). Comparing would be a breeze and convenience, forget about it! Sure would be cool though! Maybe you and I can start, we will take out ad's in the classified part of the newspapers all along the Mississippi, it will be huge! ;D
Your #2 is over rated so don't feel bad. We have 2 here(well sort of, if you can even consider Rivers End one anymore) and we have pick up a orders maybe 3 times this year. With free shipping from so many vendors, it really usually isn't worth your time, let alone gas!
I have the same knack for hearing a scraping flood bar from across the shop. I feel old when I have to tell the guys to turn the music down! They don't know it is because I am trying to listen if they are going to mess up! ;)
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A solvent dishwasher. A place I can put all of my squeegees, floodbars, ink knives, mixing trays and so on in and get them all cleaned. This is more important for ink knives frankly, but something that would take 15-20 minutes maybe to clean ink off a load of stuff. I am a huge fan of automation, something that an employee can start, walk away from and come back to them ready to use. Something similar for screens would be great too, i know they exist, but the price tag is just a little too high for most shops.
Yep, this would be a big one. I wonder how much pressure you'd need to remove white plastisol from an ink
knife?
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my biggest:
A solvent dishwasher. A place I can put all of my squeegees, floodbars, ink knives, mixing trays and so on in and get them all cleaned. This is more important for ink knives frankly, but something that would take 15-20 minutes maybe to clean ink off a load of stuff. I am a huge fan of automation, something that an employee can start, walk away from and come back to them ready to use. Something similar for screens would be great too, i know they exist, but the price tag is just a little too high for most shops.
Working to include this with the thing-a-magig youlwill be getting in Jan. :o 8)
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my biggest:
A solvent dishwasher. A place I can put all of my squeegees, floodbars, ink knives, mixing trays and so on in and get them all cleaned. This is more important for ink knives frankly, but something that would take 15-20 minutes maybe to clean ink off a load of stuff. I am a huge fan of automation, something that an employee can start, walk away from and come back to them ready to use. Something similar for screens would be great too, i know they exist, but the price tag is just a little too high for most shops.
There is a automated screen washer from Screen Systems that removes ink from screens. We have had them make modified shelves that can drop in it, you can put squeegees and what ever in that and walk away. Since it is made to take ink off screens it would have you covered there too. If you are interested you can PM me and I can get you the sales guys info.
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The automotive painting industry has auto solvent washers for paint guns.
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E
My wish list?
It's short:
1) Standards.
No more mystery. Industry wide standards for color, registration systems, substrate suitability, etc etc.
Offset and digital printing has had this sh*t down for decades. Heck we stole (and for the most part badly implemented) their color standards.
You can arrive at a result fifty different ways at fifty different screen printing shops. It's never a question of what, it's always a question of how. Gimme standards.
I agree.. A Certificate Of Analysts for all inks, emulsions and mesh readily available to
all printers (Not just the large accounts) so that there's no guessing when putting together a print production.
And put me down on the web app team for the screen print supply super store..
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standards for this industry will never happen. there are way too many variables. i was talking about this with the great Greg Kitson and the variables are what is preventing our industry from turning into a vistaprint or other bulk printing company that turns stuff out cheaper than just about any local company.
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Well the standards would be set in your operation and having all measured and tested data on materials will help in putting these standards in place.. We will approve or disapprve of a particular ink for instance, but did we not pick the correct mesh/stencil combo for that ink and that's why it didn't work or did we get lucky through trial and error/R&D and that's why it did.
The most effective screen is stretched by percentage of elongation but that is based on it's stress/strain curve (wait what? how am i supposed to get it's SS curve?) And it gets worst when it comes to the inks values.. So we try and try..
The CoA is available to all printing industries except the garment decorating industry (The industry that has the most variables to contend with).. and thats because the other industries carry larger accounts. You should and supposed to request a CoA from your suppliers.. (Ok let's just look at your acc.. Yea ahh no..)
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Yep, this would be a big one. I wonder how much pressure you'd need to remove white plastisol from an ink
knife?
Basically a Safety Kleen heated aqueous solution but pumping through a dishwasher. That's blast white ink right off.
You're biggest issue would be filtration maintenance.
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my biggest:
A solvent dishwasher. A place I can put all of my squeegees, floodbars, ink knives, mixing trays and so on in and get them all cleaned. This is more important for ink knives frankly, but something that would take 15-20 minutes maybe to clean ink off a load of stuff. I am a huge fan of automation, something that an employee can start, walk away from and come back to them ready to use. Something similar for screens would be great too, i know they exist, but the price tag is just a little too high for most shops.
Maybe this will do..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CkzqDTQaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CkzqDTQaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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adding that (and a screen washer) my wish list... for sure... tho with how many color changes we seem to go through here, I'd buy the 'tools' cleaner before the screen washer.
Of course that's after a LED UV exposure unit and gas dryer....
-J
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As long as we are wishing, it would be nice to have no supplier be more than a 2-day ship away. Yes this could probably be taken care of if I was a better planner, but who has time for that! ;)
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planning is not a forte of screen printers
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not true. I have backups of basically every consumable in my shop, sometimes multiples. I have materials on hand to fix and fabricate equipment. I have a fairly comprehensive production schedule, though obviously rush jobs and certain clients can mix that up at times. I found that a bit of time planning makes everything a hell of a lot faster and less stressful.
I do agree it would be nice if suppliers were better at shipping quickly. Suppliers like Ace transfer will two day ship to me from wherever the hell they are located, yet texsource is 3 hours from me and simple in stock items can take a week and a half at times. I buy from my local shop as often as possible, despite not always being the best deal, because I find that when you really need something quick, they often can press the issue better with manufacturers.
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Less Goverment involvement. Here is a thought to help cleaning, someone should coat their flood, squeegees with Rust oleum's "never wet" and see if it works with inks.
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Funny as can be "with sound effects" wishing away...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYzdc00jKE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYzdc00jKE)
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not true. I have backups of basically every consumable in my shop, sometimes multiples. I have materials on hand to fix and fabricate equipment. I have a fairly comprehensive production schedule, though obviously rush jobs and certain clients can mix that up at times. I found that a bit of time planning makes everything a hell of a lot faster and less stressful.
I do agree it would be nice if suppliers were better at shipping quickly. Suppliers like Ace transfer will two day ship to me from wherever the hell they are located, yet texsource is 3 hours from me and simple in stock items can take a week and a half at times. I buy from my local shop as often as possible, despite not always being the best deal, because I find that when you really need something quick, they often can press the issue better with manufacturers.
Under my desk I have a gallon of emulsion, 6 rolls of tape, 2 boxes of gloves, discharge agent and a quart of Yellow WB pigment. Basically everything we need to get through a day or two if the kids forget to tell me we're out of something. The longest we've ever been down was about 2 hours once, due to the flame
rod on our dryer going out. We have two of those now, among other things.
I don't stand for lazy suppliers. I just don't stand for it. You tell me when your shipping cutoff time is and as long as I order before that time I expect
it to be shipped that day. I mean, no offense, but "go around and put the stuff in a box and ship it" is a darn sight easier than "take the stuff out of the box
and somehow make printed shirts happen". Not to mention that me placing an order for specific items is a hell of a lot less complex than me divining what
the hell our clients actually want. Maybe a purple longsleeve. Yeah.
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I basically don't order from Texsource, Ryonet, or Atlas due to the horrible shipping times. Sometimes things show up in a day or two, sometimes a week or two. Not worth it.
Unless it is something I can only get from one of those places, I usually order directly from the manufacturer (if possible) or hound my local guy about it (who is awesome) or I order from Ace (though their stock is limited, as all the suppliers are in one way or another). For a lot of things I will order a sample and if I like it, I will order a ton of whatever it is so I am never rushing to get it from them. I reorder when I am about half way through whatever I have on hand.
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I basically don't order from Texsource, Ryonet, or Atlas due to the horrible shipping times. Sometimes things show up in a day or two, sometimes a week or two. Not worth it.
Unless it is something I can only get from one of those places, I usually order directly from the manufacturer (if possible) or hound my local guy about it (who is awesome) or I order from Ace (though their stock is limited, as all the suppliers are in one way or another). For a lot of things I will order a sample and if I like it, I will order a ton of whatever it is so I am never rushing to get it from them. I reorder when I am about half way through whatever I have on hand.
Ryonet did send out an email the other day confessing that they had major glitches with a new system they implemented a while back and are just now finally getting a grasp on them. Maybe that is part of the issue you experienced. *shrug*
I do like my two "local" guys, GSG and Reece. Deliveries twice a week and on separate days so I can get something I need "next day" as long as it's not Thursday (Friday is the one day that no one comes out this way).
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I basically don't order from Texsource, Ryonet, or Atlas due to the horrible shipping times. Sometimes things show up in a day or two, sometimes a week or two. Not worth it.
Unless it is something I can only get from one of those places, I usually order directly from the manufacturer (if possible) or hound my local guy about it (who is awesome) or I order from Ace (though their stock is limited, as all the suppliers are in one way or another). For a lot of things I will order a sample and if I like it, I will order a ton of whatever it is so I am never rushing to get it from them. I reorder when I am about half way through whatever I have on hand.
Thats kinda crazy, I have never had a shipment issue from Atlas, and sometimes we are ordering twice times a week. I have only orderd from Ryonet maybe once ever, they are just too far away for shipping(4 days).