TSB
screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: ZooCity on July 21, 2011, 08:31:18 PM
-
So we're finally getting into our new space here in the next couple weeks which means we're going to be able to print wb and discharge. I plan on sampling the various ink systems and choosing one I like best but wanted to hear about preferences here.
I've printed a bit of Matsui before and enjoyed it. At the same time we're going to be running Wilflex plastisols and using the IMS pretty extensively with an integrated scale. There's a temptation to go with the Oasis pigments for this reason. Discharge will be down the road once we're up and running with WB and I know you can use the various activators/bases interchangeably to some degree with whatever pigment system you're using. Running CCI discharge with Oasis pigments for example. Then I'm sure there's many others. While I feel Pantone matches via formulas are going to be used less (am I wrong on this?) having a central system for formulas would be a treat.
I have about 8 gallons of TW 5500 series wb graphics inks that I ran a flatstock job with last month and they, for instance, have high-pigment concentrates but no formula system. Using this system I noticed I don't personally have a need for a pms formula system on everything as I have enough color knowledge now to mix quickly and effectively by eye but I'm not the only printer up in here and I want everyone on a routine of standard practices for recording and replicating ink mixes. I've heard that pms matches with the Matsui set is frequently problematic as well.
Any hard votes one way or the other? Cost is not an issue, I buy whatever works best for our shop and I like high quality pigments. Going with TW over Speedball for example was worth every single penny.
Just doing a little homework in advance.
-
I like Matsui in that it resists drying in the screen, but IMHO their formulas just suck. Oasis soft base dries too quickly in the screens and certain colors are lumpy and not print friendly. The Oasis pigments are more sensible to me than Matsui, but I come from years on the Wilflex's plastisol system and the Oasis pigments are relatively similar. Oasis formulas are pretty good. Lately have been using Matsui Printgen MG retarder in Oasis and it really helps. I'm glad to run both trying to make the best of each system's fortes.
On discharge colors, have had the best results with Sericol, a few Matsui colors too. Sericol is a balanced system with no pigments, it's predictable and very printable, they at least have discharge formulas that are in the ballpark.
I've also realized that the activators are pretty much the same from Rutland to Matsui to Sericol, so I buy whatever is cheapest. The activator I buy now is less than half the price of some brands and works great.
I kind went head first into these systems, but have learned a lot by having all of them at the same time.
-
I'll add Sericol to the short list. I do want our wb system to be our discharge system, that's for sure.
One thing I forgot to mention, environmental impact and workplace conditions are a big consideration. No stinky inks.
-
Sericol and Rutland discharge stinks. Matsui discharge and WB are the least objectionable smelling IMHO, but with discharge, you're gonna have a smell one way or another. Oasis has it's own odor, not too bad. You can also run Sericol as plain WB without activating it, it doesn't smell until you activate it.
-
I just started using the Sericol system. Since I am just getting into it, it seemed like the easier system to use when starting out. Plus I did not need to upgrade to a 100th of a gram scale from a 10th. The discharge agent is pretty strong smelling too.
-
I would go with CCI base and white, Oasis pigments. It's the best combination I've come across. Matsui comes in second. Do yourself a favor and come up with your own formulas. Let me know if you need advice on screen prep.
tp
-
Hey Tony, I think we'd all benefit from some of your advice about screen prep for discharge/WB, care to spill the beans?
-
Of course many different emulsions etc. will work but the idea of using the same ink and screen chemical company appealled to me and it has turned out to be an excellent option. I use the CCI WR25 and hardener, the GR70 and Microwash 2 products for cleaning and reclaim. Plus the CCI discharge white and base as mentioned above. All these products were specifically designed to work together. Heres the screen prep technique:
Screens are coated two over two as normal. For extremely long runs you can let dry and hit the print side one more time for extra insurance. Expose and dry. Appply the HardenerX to the print side and dry. Using the leftover WR25 black out all open areas around the inside diameter of the screen. Also for pinholes, reg marks, and any writing. Post expose for twice the normal light units. Finally tape as normal being sure to use a rubber base adhesive brand. If you do this correctly you will not need to use a whole roll!
Again I've used other brands with the same method but this results in a highly water resistant stencil that will reclaim easily. On that note discharge screens should be reclaimed straight away.
Best tp
-
Any updates on what you are using Zoo? I am considering getting further into WB as well. My concerns are drying in the screen as our shop in the dead of summer will be 110+ at times. I already like the CCI white and base and will evaluate Sericol next week. I wish CCI would get their pigments done so I could compare.
-
Any updates on what you are using Zoo? I am considering getting further into WB as well. My concerns are drying in the screen as our shop in the dead of summer will be 110+ at times. I already like the CCI white and base and will evaluate Sericol next week. I wish CCI would get their pigments done so I could compare.
I'm going to start with CCI Discharge Clear and White bases and probably use Matsui or maybe Sericol RFU colors and mix by eye until CCI comes out with its pigment system. Then I'll probably migrate to that and just use up the backstock of spot colors over time. I do want to trial Oasis and give it a chance.
Thats the plan at least. Going to be another minute before I can go at it head-on. Been dabbling and slowly preparing for the addition as I can.
-
That's cool, me and you are on the exact same track.
-
Any updates on what you are using Zoo? I am considering getting further into WB as well. My concerns are drying in the screen as our shop in the dead of summer will be 110+ at times. I already like the CCI white and base and will evaluate Sericol next week. I wish CCI would get their pigments done so I could compare.
The CCI rep was in our shop last week. Great to meet him. We use Matsui for pigments and CCI's discharge base and white. He is coming back in about two months and I plan on taking some hours out of my day to chat with him. Hopefully he will be bringing some of their pigment samples. He said they are about three months out from being available. Very excited to give them a try
-
My CCI rep was in last week and had a printed sample of their red discharge. It was good, not great just good
-
Great info guys. i have to ask this though... where do y'all buy the inks (sericol, matsui, etc...)? I just talked Nazdar about Oasis and was told they are having trouble getting pigments from China so they have very limited if any stock. Google search reveals actually very little about where to purchase the inks or maybe i'm just searching the wrong terms. So far, I have only found one company but they are a 3 day ship to me. (I'm in Atlanta)
so, we do you buy from? :)
-
The only place I see Sericol is Atlas Screen, Dimensional Products and GJS Machinery (I think)
-
Great info guys. i have to ask this though... where do y'all buy the inks (sericol, matsui, etc...)? I just talked Nazdar about Oasis and was told they are having trouble getting pigments from China so they have very limited if any stock. Google search reveals actually very little about where to purchase the inks or maybe i'm just searching the wrong terms. So far, I have only found one company but they are a 3 day ship to me. (I'm in Atlanta)
so, we do you buy from? :)
Nathan: I’m not sure who you spoke to at Nazdar SourceOne but they were way, way off base in suggesting that any product availability issues with Wilflex Oasis are related to sourcing pigments from China. PolyOne the parent company of Wilflex is undergoing a transition in their water based textile screen-printing inks program and is looking to bring all manufacturing into their US domestic locations.
This transition has coincided with the a change in their relationship with their current manufacturing partner, and has resulted in some inventory availability challenges while this transition is in process. I can assure you that PolyOne Wilflex is working closely with Nazdar SourceOne and all of their Channel Distribution partners to maintain an adequate supply of Oasis Products throughout what we expect to be a short term transitional change over period.
Please accept my apologies for any incorrect information that you were given during your contact with Nazdar SourceOne, and if you are looking for availability of a specific Wilflex Oasis product I encourage you to contact Nazdar SourceOne by phone at (888) 578-5713, Fax (888) 258-5050, Email cserv@sourceoneonline.com, or your local PolyOne Wilflex Oasis product distributor.
-
After try Sericol, Matsui,CCi, Jantex..., We use CCI D for the whites, and sericol with all the colors. To mix our colors We use HO white instead a regular white from Sericol.
When you use the inks without the activator (like a regular WB for light color shirts) doesn't smell, with the discharge activator some inks smell a little more than others, but not bad at all....
On long runs, the screen with black WB ink is the most prone to break, if you don't have your pressure right. Anyway in long runs you have to use hardener, and post expose. But here in Florida, a couple hours in the sun and its done..
-
Good info Peter, thanks for clarifying. The pigment from China shortage comment had me steering away from considering Oasis.
Another ink mfg. that I used to use once had an issue sourcing their red pigment and it was really problematic not having any Red Yellow Shade for months and then finding it mis-formulated when I finally could get it again. I presume that if you change your supply chain dramatically you need to re-formulate, re-test the end product. Don't want to go down a road like that ever again though.
I had heard about this from someone at Wilflex. What's the scoop? Is this a total overhaul of Oasis or just a little tune-up?
-
Good info Peter, thanks for clarifying. The pigment from China shortage comment had me steering away from considering Oasis.
Another ink mfg. that I used to use once had an issue sourcing their red pigment and it was really problematic not having any Red Yellow Shade for months and then finding it mis-formulated when I finally could get it again. I presume that if you change your supply chain dramatically you need to re-formulate, re-test the end product. Don't want to go down a road like that ever again though.
I had heard about this from someone at Wilflex. What's the scoop? Is this a total overhaul of Oasis or just a little tune-up?
PolyOne is undertaking a total overhaul of the Wilflex Oasis product line, and there will be a lot more information about this subject after month-end.
-
The best wb inks in my opinion do come from Australia. Permaset Aqua are great. They do 2 different lines of wb inks, Permaset Aqua for light colored garments and Permaset Supercover for dark garments. Those inks are super opaque and super soft. They print on nylon and most 100% polyester fabrics without any problem. No need for any additive.
Here is a link to their website
Oh and they are the most eco friendly inks out there.
http://www.permaset.com.au/_blog/Permaset/post/Permaset_Aqua/# (http://www.permaset.com.au/_blog/Permaset/post/Permaset_Aqua/#)
-
I had been using Matsui Discharge white and pigments and base for colors. I had a job come up for florescent green and white on black so I got some of the CCI White and Sericol Florescent Green. The white printed like a dream compared to the Matsui and the Sericol Florescent came out bright and has washed well so far. I may be making a change.
-
Thats where I am now unless CCI does good on their pigments but CCI white/base and Sericol for colors is an awesome system.
-
Did you use Matsui Base before you tried the CCI? Just wondering if it was comparable or prints nicer like the white?
-
I used Jantex and Union and can definitely say CCI is 100 times better.
-
Sericol's Texcharge TC, Texiscreen AJ Aqua and Permaset from Australia are the only waterbased inks that have been awarded the organic certificat by the Soil Association. Which is pretty awesome if you ask me.
-
Sericol's Texcharge TC, Texiscreen AJ Aqua and Permaset from Australia are the only waterbased inks that have been awarded the organic certificat by the Soil Association. Which is pretty awesome if you ask me.
.
Tell me about permaset, I'm unfamiliar with them.
-
anyone tested Nazdars Magna series? Looks like its available now.
-
Peter could you pls elaborate? To the best of my knowledge which is dim at best; I believe the Oasis products were actually produced by Magna. Will there be a change in product names/#s? Also still having trouble locating pigments and it seems they are often only available in gallons. On a side note if quarts will be more readily available it would be best to offer them in dispensible squeeze bottles as many of them are prone to drying and flaking.
tp
-
Sericol's Texcharge TC, Texiscreen AJ Aqua and Permaset from Australia are the only waterbased inks that have been awarded the organic certificat by the Soil Association. Which is pretty awesome if you ask me.
.
Tell me about permaset, I'm unfamiliar with them.
Sorry have not forgotten you and your request regarding Permaset inks.
Excellent waterbased inks from Australia. Dry very slow in the screen, fantastic colors. Can be printed on nylon without the need of any catalyst. You can use them too on 100% polyester tops. Permaset Aqua is for light colored garments while Permaset Supercover is for dark garments. Here is a link to their website
http://www.permaset.com.au/ (http://www.permaset.com.au/)
-
Does permaset supercover work on water-resistant/proofed nylon and polyester? They list flags on their application chart, which makes me hopeful, but they aren't listing materials--I'd like to hear from someone who's tried it.
I'm pretty interested in this stuff.
-
Peter could you pls elaborate? To the best of my knowledge which is dim at best; I believe the Oasis products were actually produced by Magna. Will there be a change in product names/#s? Also still having trouble locating pigments and it seems they are often only available in gallons. On a side note if quarts will be more readily available it would be best to offer them in dispensible squeeze bottles as many of them are prone to drying and flaking.
tp
Tony: Thanks for your inquiry on the status of PolyOne Wilflex and MagnaColours water based textile inks. I’ll provide an update that’s as complete as possible, and I invite anyone with additional questions to check out the Nazdar SourceOne website @ www.SourceOneOnline.com (http://www.SourceOneOnline.com), email cserv@sourceoneonline.com, phone (888) 578-5713, fax (888) 258-5050 or reach out to me directly via email or PM.
The Beginning: PolyOne and MagnaColours developed a relationship about eight years ago for PolyOne to act as the Master Distributor to bring a select group of Magna manufactured water based textile screen-printing inks under the Wilflex Oasis brand to market through PolyOne’s distribution network. This relationship has proved successful for Magna, PolyOne, Distribution and the customers we serve.
Recent Events: The end of the PolyOne and MagnaColours relationship occurred due to changes in the industry that occurred over time that changed the basic structure the PolyOne and Magna relationship was built upon. PolyOne is primarily a manufacturer of Plastisol PVC and other oil based PVC free ink chemistries, that views water base inks as a valuable complimentary product, but not necessarily a replacement to their other core ink technologies. MagnaColours by contrast is a full-line manufacturer of water based PVC Free ink systems, that is looking to bring a much wider range of products to market that they consider to be viable replacements for some current PVC and Oil based ink systems.
Future Directions: PolyOne has embarked on a program to bring manufacturing of the Wilflex Oasis product line under their direct control, and will be introducing an updated Oasis range of products in the coming weeks and months. MagnaColours has made a major commitment to the US, Mexico, Central America, and Canadian markets. The first step completed by Magna was to establish a direct distribution program with Nazdar SourceOne to bring the full MagnaPrint product range to the markets that we serve. One important point that I would like to make is that this relationship officially commenced as of March 5th, 2012.
Where Are We Now? PolyOne, MagnaColours, Nazdar SourceOne and other Wilflex Distributors have been working hard behind the scenes to manage inventories of the Magna manufactured Wilflex Oasis products to do our very best to ensure continuity of supply to existing Wilflex Oasis users. PolyOne is working to complete the launch and roll-out for the new PolyOne manufactured Oasis product line, while MagnaColours and Nazdar SourceOne are ramping up inventories of an expanded range of MagnaPrint branded inks for distribution to our customers. I also want to set realistic expectations for people reading this post and state that it will take Magna & SourceOne a couple of months to get the pipeline fully filled
Want to find out more? Check out the Nazdar SourceOne website @ www.SourceOneOnline.com (http://www.SourceOneOnline.com), email cserv@sourceoneonline.com, phone (888) 578-5713, fax (888) 258-5050 or reach out to me directly via email or PM.
-
I hesitate to reply to this thread, I'm such a lightweight with WB & discharge, but I have 2 persistent problem colors: I can't discharge a decent BRIGHT RED, and my pigmented WHITE discharge is just not really white enough.
I'm using Matsui clear bases with PC Pigments and Matsui's color matching software, but find the CCI D White soooo printable.
Anybody got a consistent solution for DISCHARGED Reds and a Bright Whites? I'll try anything at this point. All my other colors are easier than those.
I've been at this for just over a year, and still chasing a good red.
Oh, and is Sim Process doable with Discharge at a "Sophomore" level? I'd pay for some decent seps, to get started, although I do all my spot seps in house. (With varying results, especially with halftones.) Maybe 2nd Semester Freshman is more realistic. :)
-
I did this today with matsui base and pigments to get a pms185, still off a little though. VERY bright, this is a crappy pic.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/jlansdell/oasis185red.jpg)
-
I hesitate to reply to this thread, I'm such a lightweight with WB & discharge, but I have 2 persistent problem colors: I can't discharge a decent BRIGHT RED, and my pigmented WHITE discharge is just not really white enough.
I'm using Matsui clear bases with PC Pigments and Matsui's color matching software, but find the CCI D White soooo printable.
Anybody got a consistent solution for DISCHARGED Reds and a Bright Whites? I'll try anything at this point. All my other colors are easier than those.
I've been at this for just over a year, and still chasing a good red.
Oh, and is Sim Process doable with Discharge at a "Sophomore" level? I'd pay for some decent seps, to get started, although I do all my spot seps in house. (With varying results, especially with halftones.) Maybe 2nd Semester Freshman is more realistic. :)
Sericol for a bright red out of the bucket. I love the CCI white. This pic sucks but I am totally satisfied with it.
http://www.sericol.com/landingpages/texcharge/texchargeperformance.html (http://www.sericol.com/landingpages/texcharge/texchargeperformance.html)
-
I did this today with matsui base and pigments to get a pms185, still off a little though. VERY bright, this is a crappy pic.
([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/jlansdell/oasis185red.jpg[/url])
Hey Jasonl, thanks for posting the pic. I've done 185, 186, 1935, and all manner of fizzywoogah with each of those three colors with limited success. I do agree that the 185 might have been the best.... I hate when my redd shifts to the PINK, but the 185 looked a skoche too Orange to my eye.
And @ Prosperitees, I'd buy some Sericol Discharge red, if you'd post the specifics of which one you buy. Is it ready to print as a straight WB, or as a discharge after adding the activator? And I'm not overly excited about the actual WHITENESS of the CCI D White after a wash or two. It's OK, just not jaw dropping white, like 2 passes of Matsui 301W--Print Flash Print. That's some white ink right there, dead flat, with a decent hand.
-
Ill PM you.
-
I did this today with matsui base and pigments to get a pms185, still off a little though. VERY bright, this is a crappy pic.
([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/jlansdell/oasis185red.jpg[/url])
Hey Jasonl, thanks for posting the pic. I've done 185, 186, 1935, and all manner of fizzywoogah with each of those three colors with limited success. I do agree that the 185 might have been the best.... I hate when my redd shifts to the PINK, but the 185 looked a skoche too Orange to my eye.
And @ Prosperitees, I'd buy some Sericol Discharge red, if you'd post the specifics of which one you buy. Is it ready to print as a straight WB, or as a discharge after adding the activator? And I'm not overly excited about the actual WHITENESS of the CCI D White after a wash or two. It's OK, just not jaw dropping white, like 2 passes of Matsui 301W--Print Flash Print. That's some white ink right there, dead flat, with a decent hand.
Yep, on the orange side in my opinion. I am still looking. Sericol is next for me. Just gotta find where to get it in GA.
-
Peter, thanks for that history and update. I'm gearing up to do a whole lot of wb and discharge and this knowledge is empowering. It's more important to me that our inks are consistently manufactured, readily available and backed up with tech support and documentation than anything else so it helps a lot to know what's going on with the manufacturing side in making decisions. I think my requirements above are even more important with wb and discharge inks due to the need to formulate your own in-house recipes. You don't want to have to change ink brands often or ever if at all possible after putting all that r&d into it. With all the variance in screen printing to begin with and the wild variance in clothing dye lots and methods having your ink under control as a variable seems critical here.
JasonL and others: I'm a discharge virgin but, from what everyone else is saying and from experience with ink generally I think the secret to getting your colors lies in the pigment loading. Every shirt is going to discharge to a certain degree and having enough and the right kind of pigments to smooth out those differences is probably the key. Kinda like printing with quality, high-pigment load plastisols. Those inks can often go down and cover up every substate color from whites to black and yield consistent color tones across the board. We do print with 2 wb ink systems currently and one of them, TW Graphics 5500 series has some pure pigment colors that are just loaded with pigment and it makes a huge difference. Costs a little more for sure but probably worth it.
-
For the Sericol RFU red that I use you want to be in the 3-4% activator range, if you go over that it wont be as bright, same goes for flourescents.
-
Ill PM you.
Got it. Thanks!
Stan
-
Rutland WB/Discharge stinks. Everyone in the shop was complaining and it made me sick when working with it until I started wearing a respirator. But I think I may be sensitive to it. Might be completely different for you. But it does have a smell to it that is pretty potent.