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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: blue moon on November 11, 2013, 10:59:17 AM
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Few weeks back, 'had an opportunity to meet Joe Clarke and Richard Greaves. It was a highlight of the SGA trip and it was just spectacular to sit down with those guys and chat.
It turns out, Richard lives just shy of three hours north of here and wanted to stop by and see the shop. "Stop by" was changed to couple of days and extended to four!
Having Richard here was like an All Star High school player meeting Michael Jordan! What we do here is literally a joke compared to what he has done and can do. Some of the wildest things I thought about trying (thinking falsely that it has never been done before, like shirts with LED lights built in and touch sensors or lenticular prints with actual lenses on them) Richard did as far back as 20 years ago! I knew Richard was the stencil guru, but the level of knowledge about every aspect in a shop (including business, artwork, industrial design and so on . . .) was just astounding.
Yes, our work has suffered in the last few months and some of you might notice that I took down the advertising banner and have not sent anything to the competition this year. We are failing to deliver at our standard level right now. At the end of the day though, we can deliver a better print than most shops and because of it, I actually thought I had more than a Clue 1. Well, it turns out, that was all I had as my eyes have been open to this whole new world. The white ink we have been using over the last few years and getting pretty decent results with I should say, is failing some basic printability tests. All the dialing in of the films is just a fraction of what can and should be done. I always knew Alan802 had his processes dialed in and was doing stuff I wished we could do. Now I know that work we do here is at best at high school level compared to the PhD level stuff Richard can do. Needles to say, we have worked out a deal with Richard and hired him to fix the issues we currently have and help us grow as a business and as printers. I have not been this excited about screenprinting since winning our first Golden Image few years back.
And now for more good news! Richard is interested in doing seminars and classes on the TSB!!! Please let me know what would you like to see happen if we can take advantage or Richard's knowledge and desire to share. If there is enough interest I will try to work out a deal with him, so please, any thoughts and comments are needed.
thanx
pierre
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I've known Richard for something like 25 ys. He is definitely a pioneer of the industry along with Geoff Baxter, Joe Clarke, Mark Coudray and the like. You can't put a value on his time. His "Greaves on Garments" column in SP magazine was golden. That was time well spent I bet.
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I remember sitting in on his seminars 20 some years ago. Tony, your list is pretty good, and they all deserve to be at the top. Having him here would be great.
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I know this is a REAL broad reply/request, but I would LOVE to learn more about technique. I started at a place when I was 14, heck we would put our wood screens through the dryer after exposing them to dry them faster! I could go on with a list of things we did that would drop jaws(there were pins taped everywhere for us to use to help stubborn screens). Point is I learned everything backasswards, and what I know now is from what I have picked up here, the old TSPMB, and trial and error. I took a class or two, but there is never any SOLID technical details. So if there was stuff he could do with in depth technical details that would be killer.
P.S. Thanks for inviting me out to learn with you! :'(
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I would say it's safe to say we'd all be open to seminar/classes on here. Free or otherwise
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For me, I'm open to any and all education. There's currently too much 'mystery' and not enough 'science' in what we do at our shop...
I love taking as many variables out of the equation as possible...
as I see it, the fewer # of variables, the more profit/time savings.
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I would say it's safe to say we'd all be open to seminar/classes on here. Free or otherwise
I agree Brandt, the question though is: what material, what format and so on. I don't think right now that there would be a price to pay, but it might be something in the form of membership ($XX/$XXX per year for example) if there is to bee feedback or the classes are to take on some more serious material that would require preparation. I think some basic stuff like the emulsion and ink chemistry would be free, but if wanted something similar to the halftone mastery class that has homework and projects which have to be reviewed, there would have to be a fee involved. Would per class be better than yearly subscription? Should it stay free only? Should there be two groups (first and third week are free, second and fourth are for paying member)? I am coming up with this as I type and don't really know what would work and what would not. This is where the member's input is needed.
I also don't want to see Richard offer his help and then not have enough interest or have it wind down to one person per class. I think we owe it to a person of his caliber not to waste his time. He has graciously offered to help us, lets make sure he is treated kindly, with respect in return (as TonyP said, it is hard to put a number on the information he has to offer, it really is priceless. Think ROI of few months rather than years!).
pierre
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This would be awesome!
I'm just a small shop doing basic stuff and I've learned that when the seasoned vets of this industry speak, be sure to listen. This sounds like it could be a great opportunity for everyone on here (small/new to large/experienced).
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I would say it's safe to say we'd all be open to seminar/classes on here. Free or otherwise
I agree Brandt, the question though is: what material, what format and so on. I don't think right now that there would be a price to pay, but it might be something in the form of membership ($XX/$XXX per year for example) if there is to bee feedback or the classes are to take on some more serious material that would require preparation. I think some basic stuff like the emulsion and ink chemistry would be free, but if wanted something similar to the halftone mastery class that has homework and projects which have to be reviewed, there would have to be a fee involved. Would per class be better than yearly subscription? Should it stay free only? Should there be two groups (first and third week are free, second and fourth are for paying member)? I am coming up with this as I type and don't really know what would work and what would not. This is where the member's input is needed.
I also don't want to see Richard offer his help and then not have enough interest or have it wind down to one person per class. I think we owe it to a person of his caliber not to waste his time. He has graciously offered to help us, lets make sure he is treated kindly, with respect in return (as TonyP said, it is hard to put a number on the information he has to offer, it really is priceless. Think ROI of few months rather than years!).
pierre
Fully agree.
I like the idea of a yearly subscription. One fee, etc.
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I don't think it would be unreasonable to charge for it, get Mr. Greaves some coin for his time. You could do kinda like ISS does, where you can pay per class or have a lump some(yearly membership or whatever) that would include all classes. I am down either way. Heck, I'll throw my time in for some free smart a$$ classes 8)
Help me out here my reading comprehension rivals most grade school students, but are you proposing web seminars/classes or actual hands on at a physical location deal?
It would be cool for people interested or that take part, if there was some artwork or project per class with suggested supplies(emulsion, mesh count, ect.) to use. This would have to go up a week or so before the actual class, but then we could all do our thing in our shop and discuss outcomes, issues, tweaks, tips, ect. Just a thought.
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I would vote pay per class ...he has 1T of info?...worth it's weight in gold right there.
Online skype sessions or ? I'm not too familiar with gotomeeting or any of those programs, maybe worth looking into....sign up for the class you want, paypal 100.00 or whatever, limited space for time sake because of the million questions we'll have....
Maybe start at the beginning of the process and go from there?
Proper art set up, film, ink, printer set up -for those of us that still use film, sam zip it....
I would assume we are talking about "above newbie" type of info? or would it be as basic as "it's ink, not paint".....maybe the free class would be the bare basics of the subject and then in depth could be a paid session...
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Help me out here my reading comprehension rivals most grade school students, but are you proposing web seminars/classes or actual hands on at a physical location deal?
I don't know. It really is up to us to decide the format as long as we have enough participants Richard will do it. It can be hands on at one location (our shop for example),it can be a gotomeeting presentations, it can be hands on without getting together or just about anything else. My point is, we should come up with something and I'll pitch the idea. As long as there is enough interest we can make it happen.
pierre
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Help me out here my reading comprehension rivals most grade school students, but are you proposing web seminars/classes or actual hands on at a physical location deal?
I don't know. It really is up to us to decide the format as long as we have enough participants Richard will do it. It can be hands on at one location (our shop for example),it can be a gotomeeting presentations, it can be hands on without getting together or just about anything else. My point is, we should come up with something and I'll pitch the idea. As long as there is enough interest we can make it happen.
pierre
here's another idea!
offer everything, from entry level to PhD classes. Have your press op sit on a video conference/presentation/class this week, your screen guy the next week (taking the basic classes) and you take the "Impact of correctly setup high delta viscosity inks on your shop's production rates".
pierre
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A paid subsciption to videos, YouTube for instance would be an invaluable tool.. That way we get the ability to replay and digest the information.. Ink and emulsion chemistry/properties topics, will go a long way to tying the other variables together.
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Pierre let me say THANK YOU so much for allowing me the opportunity to meet Richard! I am still on a high from all the little bits he offered me, it will take me some time to change things but change is coming! His knowledge not only about the entire process but the business side is surreal to me there is so much depth to what he knows. I would offer subscriptions maybe multi part series on a subject matter. Whatever the charge, it would be well worth it! Simply amazing again thank you so much!
Roger
RT screen designs
Www.rtscreendesigns. Com
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I think TwitchTV can be set up to where only paid subscribers can view both a live stream and the archive of livestreams.
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Might be cool to have the video deal, but also have the possibility for people that could make it, to actually come to where the shindig is going down... The videos are always a nice thing to be able to go back and reference latter. But I know I personally learn waaaaaaaaaaaaay better hands on.
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I'm in... For whatever you guys decide is the best. I was able to talk with him a couple years ago with some "emulsion " question and was an open mind situation, and one more step on my learning curve.... I contact him through the old board and He was a nice person. He follow me for a couple days to be sure I was doing well...
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We are very lucky to have some of these guys that are so willing to see the next generation carry on the things they mastered. I really hope to be able to somehow repay the guys that have spent their time with me on so many occasions. There are some unbelievable printers in the world today who owe pretty much everything to guys like Joe and Richard, among a few others I could mention. I've got a short list of "gurus" of the industry that I'm very lucky to have at least a small bit of access to and I'm greatful for every minute of conversation. I trust their opinions and their views on anything screen printing. If Joe was to tell me that mixing cat urine to our white ink would make our print quality go up I'd be out gathering up cats as soon as I got off the phone. That's the amount of faith I put into suggestions that come from Richard and Joe.
I know these guys would be embarrassed if someone did this, but a Mount Rushmore of screen printing would be a fun project to do. The guys on it wouldn't want to be there because of their humility but I'm sure they've all lived a life of taking their job very seriously but themselves, not so much.
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I agree with a video, as opposed to live online class. This way anyone can view it and there would not be any time/schedule conflicts. Plus being able to pause, rewind, etc would be great.
I like the idea of it being held at a shop, so we can see clear hands on examples of what should be done.
I also like the idea of from the basics up. I'd like to think I know the basics, but truth is I am self taught and probably do a ton of things out of the norm. It would also be great to watch certain videos with new employees as part of their training.
Depending on price, I'd prefer to do a one time payment that got me access to everything. Unless it was very expensive, in which case I'd choose which ones were most beneficial to me.
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Well........a common additive for WB inks used to be Urea which is derived from cow pee so you're not far off Alan.
(A little something even RG probably didn't know)
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Live or webinars doesn't matter just make them all archival/recorded. So we can go back and study them. I would be will to X for the classes or the webinars. Love the idea. Seeing helps me tremendously.
Shane
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Whatever you do, I'm in. I met Richard way back in the mid-eighties. Our shop was the first in North America to have a Matex (Italian machine, 7 colors, and had the ability to put a flash between each head if you had to.) It was the pre-cursor to most of the round machines around. Geoff Baxter from Advance (at the time) came to look at it, as did Mr. Greaves. He wanted to see how fast it would go... it was a lot faster that he was, or any of us for that matter, but it was Paul Bunyan against the Wood chopping machine; the machine was faster than humans could load and unload by far. That was about it's only real good point after owning it for a while, but he sure did agree about it's speed. It had some nice ideas that were expounded upon by the other manufacturers. Soon came the round machine from Precision, Advance came out with the Centurion and others. Back to topic, Richard wrote great articles, and it would be fabulous to have him here. I hope you can persuade him to join in.
Steve
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Remember the scene in Shreck where the princess sings and the bird explodes? Keep that in mind while I relate this story.
This may have actually happened or I simply have combined several unique memories into one story, so be fairly warned and put on your boots!
I once was sitting at an SGIA event and around the table sat Richard Greaves, Don Newman, Joe Clark, Fred Clark, Mark Coudray, Tames Frescka and about a dozen groupies like myself who wanted to soak up sage advice.
As each related (pontificated) their opinions and theories on how we rag printers ply our trade, remember each guru was carrying on his own theology quite oblivious of the others around the table, continued I felt my head began to throb as the immense volumes of information crammed into my tiny cranium.
Slowly but surely heads all around the room began to explode from info overload just as that tiny bird did in the Shreck animated feature.
The aforementioned group of individuals shared information and thoroughly enjoyed the point/counterpoint intellectual exchange.
As I said, this may have only happened in my memory, but I really wish I could experience it again, or for the first time ::)
Much of my current modest success is directly attributable to dozens of conversations like I described herein.
Thanks guys!
~Kitson
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I know these guys would be embarrassed if someone did this, but a Mount Rushmore of screen printing would be a fun project to do. The guys on it wouldn't want to be there because of their humility but I'm sure they've all lived a life of taking their job very seriously but themselves, not so much.
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I'd buy the shirt, anybody out there know an artist who can do the job!
~Kitson
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I know these guys would be embarrassed if someone did this, but a Mount Rushmore of screen printing would be a fun project to do. The guys on it wouldn't want to be there because of their humility but I'm sure they've all lived a life of taking their job very seriously but themselves, not so much.
I'd buy the shirt, anybody out there know an artist who can do the job!
~Kitson[/quote]
great idea, but my only request is to have Ryan in place of washington.
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We would put our guys on a webx or go to meeting. No brainer.
A little interaction for this level is better than downstream view imho.
But what do I know?
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If I had some decent photos of each guy we could easily do the artwork and print up some shirts...... Someone would just need to supply some pics for us to use
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Remember the scene in Shreck where the princess sings and the bird explodes? Keep that in mind while I relate this story.
This may have actually happened or I simply have combined several unique memories into one story, so be fairly warned and put on your boots!
I once was sitting at an SGIA event and around the table sat Richard Greaves, Don Newman, Joe Clark, Fred Clark, Mark Coudray, Tames Frescka and about a dozen groupies like myself who wanted to soak up sage advice.
As each related (pontificated) their opinions and theories on how we rag printers ply our trade, remember each guru was carrying on his own theology quite oblivious of the others around the table, continued I felt my head began to throb as the immense volumes of information crammed into my tiny cranium.
Slowly but surely heads all around the room began to explode from info overload just as that tiny bird did in the Shreck animated feature.
The aforementioned group of individuals shared information and thoroughly enjoyed the point/counterpoint intellectual exchange.
As I said, this may have only happened in my memory, but I really wish I could experience it again, or for the first time ::)
Much of my current modest success is directly attributable to dozens of conversations like I described herein.
Thanks guys!
~Kitson
Wow, Fred Clark. What a nice gentleman. I had a half dozen conversations with him back then, he was totally free with info, and made sure you understood what he said. If I remember correctly, his seps were done with filters on a process camera, and they were spectacular. I was very sad when I learned of his passing. Looks like the only guy missing was Jeff Campos from Electronic Design Group...
Steve
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Count me in! I think a live stream would work well if a presentation was given on a particular issue and we could be at our shop following along (even hands on with our own equipment if it was a presentation that allowed for this). Then once the presentation was done it could be time for Q&A so that shop specific questions could be addressed. This way the presentation is not interrupted but we could still have the opportunity to have things clarified our tailored to our own unique situations.
Subscription based or fee per session or both would work. I think an archive of the videos for subscribers would be beneficial since it will be difficult to find a time that works for everyone.
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I think if it was not a hands on deal, a live web stream/meeting would be best. It would be nice to somehow record the whole thing and have it available online or YouTube or whatever for those of us that don't have the best memory- effects of too much time around the shoot out gun I imagine... ::)
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I've known Richard for something like 25 ys.
Tony, thanks for the kind words. Are you still making some of your own ink?
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I took a class or two, but there is never any SOLID technical details. So if there was stuff he could do with in depth technical details that would be killer.
Alex,
I certainly promise easy to understand solid technical details. Post or mail me a question.
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Pierre let me say THANK YOU so much for allowing me the opportunity to meet Richard! I am still on a high from all the little bits he offered me, it will take me some time to change things but change is coming! His knowledge not only about the entire process but the business side is surreal to me there is so much depth to what he knows.
Of course, Roger did bring me a 20 oz Mountain dew when he came back to Blue Moon with a flash drive to copy articles .
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Well........a common additive for WB inks used to be Urea which is derived from cow pee so you're not far off Alan.
(A little something even RG probably didn't know)
Ahh. A challenge from Tony.
I grew up in the house my father build, in the middle of his father's landscape nursery. My father was a Landscape Architect and the most common fertilizer we used was urea.
In water based inks it supplied anti-bacteria, fire retardant characteristics and promotes hydrogen bonds.
When I was young with long hair, I always had to go through a book signing process when I'd pick up a pallet of urea because of it's popularity as an amateur bomb making component.
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I once was sitting at an SGIA event and around the table sat Richard Greaves, Don Newman, Joe Clark, Fred Clark, Mark Coudray, Tames Frescka and about a dozen groupies like myself who wanted to soak up sage advice.
I went to the Screen Print '81 or '82 (as it used to be called) specifically to meet Mark Coudray. He hosted an SGIA discussion at a big round table, on Four Color Process and I sat directly across from him. In the finest Master & challenging student style, I was able to add to points he made as I showed off, vying for attention. When he was finished and the table cleared he asked me "Who ... are ... you?". A great, great moment for me that lead to many discussions especially at shows for years to come.
At TechSymps'84 in Chicago he introduced me to Don Newman and Michel Caza. The high point of the weekend was sitting with several people in the coffee shop at Caza's feet after his talk, late into the night, talking about printing.
Sitting in the hotel lobby I distinctly remember I saw Mr. Newman enter with 10 boxes of stuff and an automobile tire. A year later it was me pushing all those boxes around the country when I started to work for Mr. Newman. I quickly photographed many props like the tire and started using slides for demonstrations.
Thank you Mark.
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Wow, Fred Clark. What a nice gentleman. I had a half dozen conversations with him back then, he was totally free with info, and made sure you understood what he said.
If I remember correctly, his seps were done with filters on a process camera, and they were spectacular.
Fred would have loved to have had a drum scanner (up to a million dollars) or any sort of computer when he died in early 1992.
He used a traditional with filters to photograph your art that you sent to him by FedEx. He made positive by projecting them. I watch in awe as he buzzed around in his rooms, checking his films with his eye or his antique Macbeth densitometer - then throwing a piece of 20 x 24 inch photo film in the trash and start over. 7 calendar was his shortest turnaround time.
Jeff Campos was my separator after Fred died and worked with me and Terry Kaiserman on the Tru-Tone process inks that revolutionized process printing on textiles.
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I think if it was not a hands on deal, a live web stream/meeting would be best.
It would be nice to somehow record the whole thing and have it available online or YouTube or whatever for those of us that don't have the best memory- effects of too much time around the shoot out gun I imagine... ::)
As Frog would say, "by teaching, we learn". I love answering questions because I can show off AND help the person at the same time. If a few people ask you the same question, you know it's a hot topic and there was something missing in your training materials. I loved being the webmaster at Lawson & Ulano because when I'd hear a question a third time I knew I needed an answer on the website so I didn't have to explain it again.
All the columns I wrote for magazines were based on troubleshooting I'd done recently. I was greatly influenced when Autotype Marketing manager quit and told me, "Richard, I will never explain optimum exposure ever again".
When I worked at Ulano I fielded questions on UStream from the Applications Lab on inkjet film or screenmaking on Fridays. It started when I started advising a printer on re-designing their Screen Room & a High School class I took through screenmaking step-by-step. In all these forums I post my SKYPE account and the only person to use it is a man in South Africa with the same name as my father. (This always creeps me out when he goes online and my dead father's name pops up like a ghost).
The Sage on the Stage
Lecturing isn't enough anymore. Modern schooling is undergoing a subtle change because it's so easy to video an instructor once, then put it on the Web and fire the faculty. I read a story last month about a school that's flipped their idea of homework. Students watch videos at home and come to school to work on their learning with a teacher as guide, not lecturer.
Some faculty are threatened by this because their ego as information keeper and dispenser doesn't realize their role has changed with the Internet, YouTube, Vimeo or Wikipedia. Of course, much of the screen printing information I see on YouTube makes my stomach turn.
I hope that the many people that wrote kindly about me in this thread think of me as a person willing to point you to an existing source and help explain why it's important to screen printers. If not, call me and let me try again.
Many employees don't like to read, but what they actually lack is a desire to learn. I've got access to articles or pictures that are about any subject in our industry. My employees never had a chance. they got regular clippings to read and I followed up - mostly by reminding them I wanted to see or discuss these ideas in action.
This is more than Checklists, Job Descriptions and Standard Operating Procedures, but lessons that make clear the basic cooking, physics or chemistry we use every day.
rgreaves@gmail.com
646-807-8580
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Good to see you here Richard, truly a pleasure and class is officially in session.
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I remember to this day when Richard came by my shop in rural CT unannounced with something called a Roller Frame. Back then it was rare when anyone would get a visit from a rep at all. And here was the Greaves on Garments guy who we would hang on every word right in our own shop extolling on all things SP. Even scolded the owners for not having hot water in the production floor. That spilled into a great dinner conversation. I learned so much in those few hours. (BTW we never even bought anything and he still tried to pay the bill!)
Years later who would know I would pen the Printers Perspective column for PW. It was loosely modeled after the
G on G although a little less tech saavy and more suggestive. We covered all the usual but also dived into "How to Survive a Compliance Audit" and "Understanding a Routing Guide". Sure enough several installments on discharge but back then everyone thought I was off my noodle on that subject. In any case I dipped into Richards well from time to time, borrowing some of his elements of style. Many here do not realize the scope and depth to his contribution to the industry. His accomplishments are too numerous to name.
And yes Richard I used Campos as well for more than a decade before he sadly walked away from the industry.
That was a loss to be certain.
As far as inks go the answer is yes, well sort of. We make our own dual flake glitters, discharge process and spot colors, a series of proprietary watermark products, and others. We have a homogenizer but prefer to buy waterbase raw materials. Not enough time plus making discharge binder needs to be performed in a stable environment rather than a production facility.
BTW is just ribbing about Urea. I knew you knew.
Hope all is well RG good to see you here. Just don't give it all away for free!
best tp
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And yes Richard I used Campos as well for more than a decade before he sadly walked away from the industry.
That was a loss to be certain.
A quick update on Mr. Campos, while he has not left the industry, he has switched sides.
Jeff is now a successful business owner and provides decorated apparel youth marketing & fund raising programs to Scouts and similar organizations across the US.
Jeff separated amazing projects for Mind's Eye many times and recognized the change that desk top separation programs and the concept of "Good Enough" meant he would choose to move to other projects. I am sitting in my office with a Korbel Champagne bottle image that Jeff separated for us many years ago on a shelf, still one of the best things every to run on my presses. Sadly, the market does not seem to have room for that level of craftsmanship any more.
~Kitson
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Agreed although there is the occaisional need. I use one of the old Oats and Winterland guys now and get similar quality. Among other projects Jeff separated our Indian Motorcycle graphics. The first sim process discharge prints ever produced
Glad to know Jeff is still doing work for the Boy Scouts. Looks like he developed a nice niche market.
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My Favorite Richardism:
The concept of "Gold Plated Tools" - Back in the day when a 9/16" wrench was required to do anything to a screen printing press, Richard swore that the average shop owner could buy gold plated tools for the lost revenue associated with staff members looking for that damn wrench when it walked away in somebody's else pocket.
His very practical solution, go to the hardware store and buy 3 wrenches for each workstation and make sure the boss/owner/supervisor has a handful in his desk. That way whenever you saw somebody wondering around with the 'lost wrench' look on their face you could quickly get them back to work.
Some methodology applies to many things and I have shameless repeated this great idea to many of my clients over the past 15 years, hopefully I remembered to credit RG.
Your favorite Richardism's please ;D
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The "Broken Window" concept. Not wanting to spend $50 to fix a broken window while all the heat and AC spews out the window causing at least three times that over a year. Problem is you just keep payng the bill. Unseen loss of revenue.
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my mom had a saying for stuff like that. we would always be looking for scissors, so she bought so many that you couldn't walk 3 feet without seeing one. heck if i can remember what that saying was.
when we had our gauntlet, i put a hook on the side of the control panel and had a nice chrome plated 7/16" box end wrench hanging from it. The only craftsman chrome plated tool in the whole shop, and by gosh it stayed there because it had a home. if it wasn't there I would always ask why and where it went.
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Scissors is my favorite Greaves story.
Cutting the small cut before tearing mesh for roller frames, this poor girl had the worst scissors I'd ever seen. I asked her if she passed the Ace Hardware store on the way home? When she said yes, I gave her $10 and put he scissors across my torque wrench and stepped on them.
"OH, I'm so sorry, I broke your scissors"
In the the car the Midwest Screen Supply rep yelled at me to not do that again when I was with him.
Yes, you had to be there but that girl never forgot my visit. And she took those scissors with her when she got a better job.