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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: vwyob on November 13, 2013, 10:53:24 AM
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I have discovered an MHM Film Positioning Unit gathering dust in the corner and want to utilise it for the main press. Nobody seems to know much about it. They all understand the fundamental purpose
and how it works...but everyone is a little hazy on film prep for the unit (reg marks etc).
Does anyone know of where I can obtain templates for this unit please? or how to set up our own even?
Many thanks in advance.
My apologies if there is already a post regarding this but I am still getting my head around the forum. If there already is, would you be kind enough to post a link?
Andy
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Here is a basic template we lay our artwork out on. Just adjust the reg marks down if the image is smaller.
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as Alex said, print the reg marks on the centerline above and below the artwork. Then place the top reg mark on the cross on the FPU. We normally use a 6 or a 7.
pierre
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So let me get this straight and understand this is only to poke fun and not ridicule anyone, y'all have had the MHM machines with an FPU for registering jobs as fast as it can possibly be done using film, and you haven't been using it? If you start using it correctly then you might get rid of some personel or an extra press since your setups will be about 3-4 times faster. And congrats on finding something like that, that will have about as big of an impact on production capability as anything else you could add to the shop.
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Alex....THANK YOU! :)
Pierre I think it was you that posted the excellent photos of the FPU on the forum. Thanks for that buddy. I was hoping to bump into you.
Alan I have only been with the firm a few weeks....but yes, it has been sat there for a long time. One of the guys maintains he can reg up a job a lot faster than using the FPU. My job is to show him that is simply not the case and that the FPU will increase his make ready speed.
I am already so glad I joined this forum.
Huge appreciation guys. Brilliant
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Glad to see you made it over. I thought you'd find what you needed here
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i've run into other press ops that think they can register a job faster than a pre-reg system and they are wrong...everytime. I don't care who you are, a properly used pre-reg system will beat a human operator everytime, unless you are printing 1 or 2 color jobs without tight registration.
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i've run into other press ops that think they can register a job faster than a pre-reg system and they are wrong...everytime. I don't care who you are, a properly used pre-reg system will beat a human operator everytime, unless you are printing 1 or 2 color jobs without tight registration.
That is so true! I talked with a guy in Chicago running 4 autos and no reg system. When I asked/suggested to him about getting one he said his guys were pretty fast. I don't doubt you can be fast, hell I'm fast on the anatol, but with a reg system fast isn't even a option. You are already done before you say "look how fast that was". There are more Tri-loc, PRU's, FPU's, Tab system, you name it systems out there in corners not being used than most people realize I bet.
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Any reg system that makes you do extra work like carrier sheets and whatnot I can see being tossed aside.
However with the MHM FPU you aren't adding any extra steps. You'll have to tape film to screen no matter what, (sans CTS)
and hell, the thing holds the screen for you while you are doing it. Might as well do an accurate job of it.
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So the MHM FPU is not only designed for the MHM?, sorry I never seen one in use before. Would it be advantageous to have one if you dont run an MHM?
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no use in having one without an mhm. They require pins in the screen and the matching "holders" on the press, otherwise you have a real expensive screen holder so you can tape films to it.
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It only works with a press that has the same "clamp style" or pins on the print heads that are identical to the pins on the FPU. The print heads are perfectly replicated to the FPU so as long as you line your film up correctly on every screen, and your press is "zeroed" out with the micros, the job will setup with little to no micro work.
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Interesting. I wonder how difficult it is to "zero" out the micros. I would imagine there is some sort of marker or gauge to get it there. Hey how is that for an idea? A guage for micros to let you know where you are at from center...
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Most modern presses have a little "crosshair" type thing, a reticle for lack of a better term that sits under your micros that does a pretty good job of showing the screen moving. They are gauged in a grid like pattern and some are better than others. I really like the MHM style and those would be easier to zero than ours, but the RPM's do have a decent system so you're not chasing your tail when moving the micros around.
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I wonder if someone could develop a digital gauge?
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with a bit of welding and ingenuity, you could pretty easily mount some dial indicators on the screen holders that would show you where you're at.
the inital setup would be like:
run the micros out all the way, zero them. run them all the way back, split the difference, run them back to the middle, and zero the dial indicator...
of course, is there really a point to that with a registration unit? Isn't the whole point of the registration unit to just let the screens 'float' in the hangers and lock them down while the reg unit is holding the screen in position?
-J
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So the MHM FPU is not only designed for the MHM?, sorry I never seen one in use before. Would it be advantageous to have one if you dont run an MHM?
I am actually like 90% of the way done modifying a MHM FPU to work with our anatol. After we got the S.Roque and used their PRU(Same thing as a FPU, why can't we all get along!?) it was over. Setting up jobs and lining them up was a thing of the past. A new guy can now burn screens and I don't have to worry about it. Not that our anatol could even handle a sim process job or even a 3-4 color job(registration wise), but without a PRU on the anatol all we do is 1 or 2 color jobs.
Any reg system that makes you do extra work like carrier sheets and whatnot I can see being tossed aside.
I can see that being a reason for sure.
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I wonder if someone could develop a digital gauge?
The "Auto Reg" function on the 4000's does this. Re zeros and will even move all the frames to a reference point of 1 frame. This technology came out in 1992 on the S2000. Once again a quantum leap over the competition of the time. Also on the S2000......belt drive and heads moving up and down not the table. In fairness that last feature was on the first MHM called the SA.
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Does MHM and SRoque share the same system for film positioning and screen loading?
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Does MHM and SRoque share the same system for film positioning and screen loading?
Um, not exactly. But kind of.... Their "default" systems are different, but I know if you specify S.Roque will make your press with MHM heads. That is it will work with the MHM screens and MHM FPU. I would imagine MHM would do the same thing, I have just never asked them.
Side note- anyone know what a MHM 4000AC goes for? When I was getting quotes the sales guys somewhat politely told that wasn't the machine for me. I don't doubt he was right but I still wonder what one of those puppies goes for.
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MHM 4000 Auto Reg start at about 160K
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Thanks. I kinda figured a 10/12, FPU, delivery, install and a nice thank you would of ran a wink over $200k. Awesome machine though!
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Thanks. I kinda figured a 10/12, FPU, delivery, install and a nice thank you would of ran a wink over $200k. Awesome machine though!
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Actually the 160K is for a 14/16
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Hey if anyone wants to take on/share/help with my FPU for anatol and I imagine it would work with a M&R(just didn't have one of their clamps) feel free to contact me! Here is a pic of the main adjustment that I made. Then it was just modifying a used MHM FPU I picked up. Like I said I'm maybe 90% of the way there, but things just got kicked back into overdrive here. Maybe I'll have more time next year!
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/Twinc/IMG_20131114_092323_zpsc7f3b7aa.jpg) (http://s41.photobucket.com/user/Twinc/media/IMG_20131114_092323_zpsc7f3b7aa.jpg.html)
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I've got some ideas on making a system that uses the newman pin lock pallet arms with the MHM style of taping film to the screen. I want to do the same thing I did with the triloc but do it with the pin lock and get rid of the carrier sheets. I just need to fabricate something that will perfectly replicate the pallet arm pins at the FPU. Then I'd have a pallet on the press with the swing out arms and won't have to load a pallet each time we do a setup. I have crude ideas on how to do this but after years of tinkering with this type of thing, sometimes the detail behind the parts makes all the difference in whether it works or not. That's why I never got the results I wanted until I bought a triloc that had precisely made parts that were very closely replicated between the pallet jig and FPU. When doing a regi system, if it doesn't work significantly better/more accurate and faster than lining a job up manually then it's for nothing. If I only had a machine shop back there or knew anything about fabricating small metal parts I'd have something great.
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Ok thanks a ton for all of the info. Great site you have. To me, as a newcomer, its invaluable, and the mass of experience provides me with the weight I need to put ideas forward to the guys here.
I have been playing around with our own FPU template in addition to the one kindly posted. It may not suit all but its flexible for me because I am used to working in layers. There is a layer (illustrator) for Artwork at the top. Drag and drop the artwork on this layer. Make sure artwork is grouped then click the 'centre align' button (make sure alignment to art board is checked). Cross hair 6 is where we place the head of our artwork for run of the mill centre chest prints and I just nudge it down to align with this. All cross hairs are on separate layers and can be clicked on and off. So, once artwork is in place I just click off unused layers/crosses. I have added a rough t-shirt visual and a visual for the inside of the frames we use here (you can edit sizes to suit). Also there is a right chest print layer. When using the template I have grid on (cmd/ctrl ' ) I hope this makes sense.
I realise it may not be up to scratch for some of you guys, I just wanted to give something back...hey, who knows, if one person finds it useful its all good :)
Any errors please give me a heads up.
Thanks again for all of the help/info
Andy
Quick edit: If you open and only see the one channel for cross hairs its because they are grouped. Click the arrow and it will open up for individual on/off layers. ( I realise most of you guys will know this- My apologies )
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Nice poster in the background there TCT.
I just need to fabricate something that will perfectly replicate the pallet arm pins at the FPU
Al, um, maybe like the pin bar? Make a little hinge and clamp so it swings down into the pins and locks the frame in place then register film to lasers or whatever shooting up from the squeegee side of the screen, like the MHM.
The MHM/sRoque way is clearly superior but I don't mind the carrier sheets as you can separate out registering the films from shooting them and you give the art person the opportunity to examine each film better before sending to screen. I know this could be done on a monitor instead but a physical checkpoint is always good.
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Nice poster in the background there TCT.
Ya man! I hung that up! It is pretty sweet, but I wouldn't expect less from you :D
To the extreme right is art on a old wood frame. I used to have a local artist use old wood screens as a canvas and make art for me. Kinda funny and a true explanation of what goes on in my head, I did not even realize any of that stuff in the background when I posted the pic!
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Nice poster in the background there TCT.
I just need to fabricate something that will perfectly replicate the pallet arm pins at the FPU
Al, um, maybe like the pin bar? Make a little hinge and clamp so it swings down into the pins and locks the frame in place then register film to lasers or whatever shooting up from the squeegee side of the screen, like the MHM.
The MHM/sRoque way is clearly superior but I don't mind the carrier sheets as you can separate out registering the films from shooting them and you give the art person the opportunity to examine each film better before sending to screen. I know this could be done on a monitor instead but a physical checkpoint is always good.
There lies my main problem, I only have the swingout arms to the system. Everything else has been lost or stolen or maybe it never made it from the old shop that sold us all that stuff. I remember getting a price on the pin bar and it was ridiculous from what I remember. Maybe it was the pin bar and grid board...can't remember but I didn't buy it for a reason. A hinged bar with pins was exactly what I was thinking, and I wasn't going to use the pin adapters that newman sells because they are too pricey, I was going to just drill holes in the corners. I would use a jig for a guide so that all the screens had the holes in the same spot then attach my arms on the pallet so they would be in perfect position to lock the screen in place.
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I've got some ideas on making a system that uses the newman pin lock pallet arms with the MHM style of taping film to the screen. I want to do the same thing I did with the triloc but do it with the pin lock and get rid of the carrier sheets. I just need to fabricate something that will perfectly replicate the pallet arm pins at the FPU. Then I'd have a pallet on the press with the swing out arms and won't have to load a pallet each time we do a setup. I have crude ideas on how to do this but after years of tinkering with this type of thing, sometimes the detail behind the parts makes all the difference in whether it works or not. That's why I never got the results I wanted until I bought a triloc that had precisely made parts that were very closely replicated between the pallet jig and FPU. When doing a regi system, if it doesn't work significantly better/more accurate and faster than lining a job up manually then it's for nothing. If I only had a machine shop back there or knew anything about fabricating small metal parts I'd have something great.
Fabricating small parts laser cut for example is kind of cheap these days and should be fairly easy to come by. At least here at the other side of the Pacific I can easily get metal parts laser cut to my very own specifications without breaking the bank.There are so many small shops here with high end equipment it`s crazy. As a matter of fact we will start working on our on FPU very soon with the aim of selling it at a low price. Bt the way Barnes offered me his for $3000 but I kindly refused.
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In case it's not widely known, the MHM FPU is just a metal plate with precision cut crosshairs, and LEDs from
KingBright behind. I had no idea until I got one. The brochures etc. make it look like some kid of magic.
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Alan, that makes more sense. I was wondering how you hadn't already thought of this.
I would use the pins (buy used for sure), the swing arm platen and then simply purchase two of the exact type of spring nose plungers used on the swing arms. Mount those precisely to whatever type of hinge apparatus you work out and I bet this would work very well.
eb, that's really enlightening, I too wondered what special Austrian magic was going on in the MHM FPU.
I still really don't mind carriers as I like to stack up films before sending to screen room to check things out. If I'm going to sit there and line them all up perfectly anyways, it's just one quick additional step to tape em to a hanger sheet. You get to see a lot of things you might not notice otherwise, like a stretched out color that doesn't align to the others which does happen once in awhile when outputting from an epson. I still feel like a punch system where you use a flap of blank film at the top would be cooler but Newman folks say they tried it and no go there.