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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: inkbrigade on November 18, 2013, 03:26:27 AM
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I've had it trying to level my press the old school way. Thinking about buying one of these:
http://www.actionengineering.com/Prod-23-1-7941-1207/mrreg-style-digital-leveling--off-contact-pallet.htm (http://www.actionengineering.com/Prod-23-1-7941-1207/mrreg-style-digital-leveling--off-contact-pallet.htm)
Has anyone here used one?
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Man, it's a ghost town in here. ;D
I take it no one has one.
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too expensive for me... I'm considering building something 'close' to it tho... of course, I don't require 1/1000 accuracy... if I was at a few thousandths, I'd be happy enough.
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Man, it's a ghost town in here. ;D
I take it no one has one.
We did, on a Challenger 1 Press. And to be honest ( i think i've said this before), we had less than stellar results.
The best thing about it for us, was that it gave us a 100% flat screen to put in the heads, to level the pallets/heads ourselves.
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I made my own after I saw the price. I took a shurloc EZ frame and bought some aluminum bars from Lowes and cut four pieces and bolted them on the corners of the EZ frame and then mounted four dial indicators to the aluminum bars so they would touch the corners or the pallets when the frame was mounted in the press just like a normal screen. You can turn just about any flat frame and mount dial indicators in any fashion you want as long as it's sturdy and you're done. This is one of the most simple tools to make and there is no way a homemade unit if done right won't perform exactly the same as the expensive one. I don't normally like to say that about things that someone has worked hard to make and I have no doubt it's made with exquisite parts and works perfectly, but wow...the price for something that is so incredibly simple and could be made for much cheaper. My goal was to use something like a screen frame so that it would act just like a screen we were doing a job with. As long as your dial indicators are mounted so that you can "zero" them out and they won't move other than the way their supposed to then you're good to go.
I have ideas about making a new device and I've just started the planning and looking for the parts to make it. I would give some hints as to what it is and how it works but it's so easy and practical that any hint I gave then you smart dudes would figure it out and beat me to making it and steal my thunder. It's not like it would make anyone any money since everyone could make their own for so cheap it's funny. Perhaps it would be something to patent just for the fun of it as long as it didn't cost more than you'd ever make selling them. It still would be cool to have something patented just for the resume. My cousin is a patent attorney so that part is not a problem and I've got a few guys that have experience with the patent process that could help out but I'm still not sure it would be worth it.
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Thanks for the replies guys. If the product works and does what it says, and helps me get our presses perfect I got no problem spending the money. It's gotta be better than the old out a quarter and nickel under each corner of the screen bullshit.
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Thanks for the replies guys. If the product works and does what it says, and helps me get our presses perfect I got no problem spending the money. It's gotta be better than the old out a quarter and nickel under each corner of the screen bullshit.
Just make sure you get the one with the digital dial indicators. The analog ones suck for getting a good reading. I thought Stretchdevices are having as well a leveling system, which I think was even more expensive.
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Have not used that particular one but when I was taught how to do this by Joe Clarke he had a similar set up. The only difference was a middle dial indicator for a total of 5. He taught me to level the series 1 Challenger that I learned to print on at Starter Sportswear to .0057". It was a pain. A 14 color took me about 8 hours to do from the ground up. That said there is no possibility of any shoddy workmanship from Action Engineering. A Ferrari cost a lot of money for a reason.
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I'd say it's a reasonable price for one who has the volume
and a press that needs it regularly. If planes are off,
pays for itself in the first year offsetting labor spent on line up of tight tolerance work.
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The LOCP is now offered with Digital Dial Indicators. It's much much easier to use it that way.
We use honeycomb aluminum for the top assembly and pallet assembly. The reason for the honeycomb is because the material is extremely flat. The edges of the honeycomb are machined to match the thickness of the standard aluminum and rubber pallet. When the dial indicators touch the machined pockets on the honeycomb pallet - the measurement is very accurate. This method allows you to precisely reference and tune the planer agreement between the frames and the pallets.
As with all products that we develop & offer - we will guarantee your satisfaction.
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Sonny, that sounds like hell. I think a series 1 would be off by rougly 10 times your tolerance in about 2-3 days of normal production. Our Gauntlet's platens will be up to 1/16" out of parallel in about 3 production days. We were paralleling every Friday and now it's every Wed and Fri.
One thing that any of these jigs will not help with is the plane of carriage- if the carriages and print head arms are not in plane with each other across their entire linear motion or very, very close you will still have frustrations on a press with screen holder and platens in parallel. Use a flood bar and no screen loaded to confirm that each print head is on the same plane and fix that if needed first, then get to it with keeping holders and platens in parallel.
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Wow Chris. I'm sure you're looking for why they are coming out, have you got any theories yet?
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Sonny, that sounds like hell. I think a series 1 would be off by rougly 10 times your tolerance in about 2-3 days of normal production. Our Gauntlet's platens will be up to 1/16" out of parallel in about 3 production days. We were paralleling every Friday and now it's every Wed and Fri.
One thing that any of these jigs will not help with is the plane of carriage- if the carriages and print head arms are not in plane with each other across their entire linear motion or very, very close you will still have frustrations on a press with screen holder and platens in parallel. Use a flood bar and no screen loaded to confirm that each print head is on the same plane and fix that if needed first, then get to it with keeping holders and platens in parallel.
How do you check to make sure it's in plane with the carriage?
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You can use the old floodbar trick. I've paralled our press many different ways and the floodbar mounted on the carriage works very well. You put in your floodbar and your carriage plane will be shown at the end of the floodbar. You position the floodbar all the way down to touching the pallet or just a hair above, then move it back and forth and see where your pallets are unparallel from the carriage rail. Your carriage rail is the only thing that's not easy to adjust so you parallel everything up with it.
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They go out of parallel because:
- 3pt leveling is inferior for the application
- on a series 1 press like this you are going to be using your hands to index/freewheel often
- there is so much deflection on the outer edge while printing that the base assy is getting torqued more than it would with a low deflection situation, kinda like a basic lever effect
The high pressures of wb/dc which is 80%+ of what runs on the press doesn't help either I'm sure.
Eric, load a flood bar the same width or larger than the platen and drop it down to a height off the platen that you can easily and consistently measure the distance on each side, you could also put it practically on, or just above, whatever works for you. Parallel the flood bar to platen 1 with by adjusting the depth on the choppers. Measure the distance of the flood over the platen at the back of the platen and the front. It should be the same. Now do the same on each platen and it should also be the same. If a head is off you'll need to...after all the junk we were submitted to on other forums I hate to utter this but...you'll probably need to shim the print head arms into the same plane with each other.
Our Gauntlet was tight on the arms so I'm very, very thankful for that.
I'll reiterate that you need to confirm that all your carriages are in plane before using the flood method of paralleling your platens. If you parallel to a head that's out of whack then you will be chasing yer tail.
In the end, the carriages, the platens and the screens all need to be on plane to each other. I'm sure there's other methods for getting it there.
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Sonny, that sounds like hell. I think a series 1 would be off by rougly 10 times your tolerance in about 2-3 days of normal production. Our Gauntlet's platens will be up to 1/16" out of parallel in about 3 production days. We were paralleling every Friday and now it's every Wed and Fri.
One thing that any of these jigs will not help with is the plane of carriage- if the carriages and print head arms are not in plane with each other across their entire linear motion or very, very close you will still have frustrations on a press with screen holder and platens in parallel. Use a flood bar and no screen loaded to confirm that each print head is on the same plane and fix that if needed first, then get to it with keeping holders and platens in parallel.
Try one to two shifts. That's right. It would be out after one shift. Of course the shift following me on the press would take out all of my Double Bevels :o :o :o.
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I believe it. Heck, at that tolerance, it's probably out after 3 strokes. I would be happy with a press holding 0.02" or 1/64".
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We parallel to the floodbar. It just makes way more sense than paralleling to a screen. I make 2 jigs out of .060" lexan with another piece of .010" lexan glued on top like a small step. We level all 4 corners until he floodbar just barely clears the .060" and catches the .010" step on top, which puts us less than .010" from perfect, which is plenty good enough on a press with 2.5million prints on it. The new squeegee sharpener will be here tomorrow and squeegees will be less than .002" from perfect in their holders. I'm looking to really pushing our limits in the next year, working towards all single-strokes, minimal pressure and one-hit whites.
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We parallel to the floodbar. It just makes way more sense than paralleling to a screen. I make 2 jigs out of .060" lexan with another piece of .010" lexan glued on top like a small step. We level all 4 corners until he floodbar just barely clears the .060" and catches the .010" step on top, which puts us less than .010" from perfect, which is plenty good enough on a press with 2.5million prints on it. The new squeegee sharpener will be here tomorrow and squeegees will be less than .002" from perfect in their holders. I'm looking to really pushing our limits in the next year, working towards all single-strokes, minimal pressure and one-hit whites.
I like this. Sounds quick and easy and idiot proof. There are often a few cold ones involved with Friday maintenance time here, squinting at a metal ruler isn't ideal.
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What would be ideal would be a flood bar with dial indicators on each end. Should be dead simple to fab too.
We put a dime on the prox. sensor so the choppers keep the pressure on the floodbar and you can still move the carriage back and forth.
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What would be ideal would be a flood bar with dial indicators on each end. Should be dead simple to fab too.
We put a dime on the prox. sensor so the choppers keep the pressure on the floodbar and you can still move the carriage back and forth.
I like it - Would it look something like this?
Would you like to try it and report on your findings?
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Several of us have made and done the dial indicator on the flood bar tool. It works great.
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I'll see your crazy contraption and raise you one simpler--two mag bases for dial indicators, one on each end of your floodbar mount.
Zoo--assuming you're not trying to correct a curved platen through your OC adjustment, three points will level a plane. You tried that trick with the arms yet? If you're re-leveling a few times a month, should be easy to schedule... ;)
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What would be ideal would be a flood bar with dial indicators on each end. Should be dead simple to fab too.
We put a dime on the prox. sensor so the choppers keep the pressure on the floodbar and you can still move the carriage back and forth.
I like it - Would it look something like this?
Would you like to try it and report on your findings?
I'd love to. Personally I like an analogue dial indicator over digital for a purpose like this, watching a needle move as you run the squeegee over the stroke is easier than reading numbers i.m.o.
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I'll see your crazy contraption and raise you one simpler--two mag bases for dial indicators, one on each end of your floodbar mount.
Even better, but they'd have to start making the flood bars with something besides aluminum.
Never mind, just re-read that. I thought you meant mounting the mags on the flood bar itself.
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I'll see your crazy contraption and raise you one simpler--two mag bases for dial indicators, one on each end of your floodbar mount.
Even better, but they'd have to start making the flood bars with something besides aluminum.
Nah I think he means the square tube that the flood bar clamps against, that is made of steel.
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I'd love to. Personally I like an analogue dial indicator over digital for a purpose like this, watching a needle move as you run the squeegee over the stroke is easier than reading numbers i.m.o.
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Excellent! We will make the Carriage leveling Dial Indicator assembly and supply it to you for your testing and evaluation. Please call me at 800-228-4668.
I can see us now providing a calibration Kit that includes the standard LOCP and also this new assembly.
The indicators can be moved from the LOCP to this. We shall call it the Carriage Calibration Device.
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Day late and a dollar short Alan.
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Day late and a dollar short Alan.
What do you mean?
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Foo, I didn't try the trick, looked at it and pondered and spooked myself out of it, concerned I'll have to re-register. Maybe after the move. I really think it's the fact that there's no reinforcement below the print arm at the outer edge and those dang old school M&R platens have this short little bracket so the tooling plate is completely unsupported and just getting reefed on hard all day. In any case the printhead itself bows upward too so it would probably just increase the issue there.
Love the mag mounted dial indicator idea- doing this!
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Here is a pic of probably the very first flood bar with dial indicators, made in 2009. I had a feeling when I was making mine that I couldn't have been the first to think of it...I never am.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/SRI%20Pics/DannyGsFBTool_zpsa23a5894.png) (http://s485.photobucket.com/user/alan802/media/SRI%20Pics/DannyGsFBTool_zpsa23a5894.png.html)
Here is the one I fabricated last year and have used a half dozen times or so. I've wanted to find some little rollers for tips but haven't had time to look. The tips on these dial indicators screw right off so I know they make roller tips for them.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/SRI%20Pics/IMG_4718_zpsf2d00524.jpg) (http://s485.photobucket.com/user/alan802/media/SRI%20Pics/IMG_4718_zpsf2d00524.jpg.html)
And underneath that flood bar you'll see "the notebook" that I literally write just about everything down in, ink formulas, job problems, mesh tensions, EOM numbers, phone conversation notes, you name it, it goes in that spiral notebook. That's my 3rd one and I'm on my 4th one right now.
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And underneath that flood bar you'll see "the notebook" that I literally write just about everything down in, ink formulas, job problems, mesh tensions, EOM numbers, phone conversation notes, you name it, it goes in that spiral notebook. That's my 3rd one and I'm on my 4th one right now.
Not to get to OT but maybe try to use Evernote on your smart phone or a tablet. I use it for all kinds of stuff and use dictation in it as well.
The killer thing is it will sync on all your devices, you never have to hit save, and it's searchable. So instead of looking through a bunch of notebooks for that one formula, if you can remember some keywords you're golden.
This is probably such an obvious idea it's not worth mentioning here, but if people haven't tried it, it's awesome.. At least for me.
For example, I have an illustrator file with a drawing for how to cut a 10 yard piece of mesh down to screen size. I only need this information a few times a year. But when i do i can never remember. So i just open up evernote, type mesh cutting and boom, up pops a graphic showing me where to cut it.
Also i keep having bad luck with control boards on our forklift. So when i initaly swapped the board i took some pics of where the wires go, and added the work forklift to the note. Now when i have to replace that damn board again, i just search for forklift and it brings up my notes and photos.