Author Topic: The future of color separations  (Read 4267 times)

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The future of color separations
« on: October 31, 2013, 09:56:21 PM »
Browser Color Separations


Like the description.. You want the truth? Very basic tools for high speed separations. I can build any custom automation we need around this foundation. Pull any color 100% dead on math in the digital color spaces.


Offline starchild

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 10:43:36 PM »
So forget simple seps.. Browser seps is where it's at?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:45:38 PM by starchild »

Offline Full-SpectrumSeparator

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2013, 04:36:36 AM »
Tom has a new shiny toy he is playing with, but don't worry I am still fully involved in the SimpleSeps projects.    We're about to re-launch the adobe extensions and a whole new upgrade to SSR for Draw that has some amazing new features that really make it easy to use and fast to go right from separation to halftone rip which is the key part.   Most people have no idea about all that separation stuff they just want to get some halftone films to work with that are going to work the best on press.     It's really not that hard and whatever Tom has planned for online separations I myself still think most professionals will want tools that work within programs like Corel and Photoshop, and that is my strong-point so it's what I'm focused on.   I can't speak for Tom, but I know that he is really excited about what he is working on... I just think that he needs to keep in mind the needs of printers and not get lost in the digital world.... I have found that if people don't have a good foundation of screenmaking and some instructions on how to get or compensate to get these halftone patterns on press then it won't matter with the separation math.

As far as SimpleSeps goes... it is still well alive and just getting going on a whole new campaign of upgrades and new releases.   I tried to break it down so there is a tool for beginners and a more advanced one for professionals.      Startup screenprinters are not going to be able to use Corel or Photoshop that well, so I needed to make some 1-click tools that go all the way to halftones to have something that really works for that level of new-user/new printer.   

I really have no idea what kind of crazy thing Tom is planning for the browser-seps... but I suppose it makes it more universal without having to use Corel or Photoshop, but I think that takes away from what you'll be able to do with the separations... the whole issue is that everyone's setup is a bit different in terms of their dot-curve response.    I'm trying to focus on the printing production side of it to go along with the new simpleseps upgrades and releases, so that people can see how to take those digital halftone separations to films and print them with confidence, and how to measure their dot-response curves if they want to start getting more advanced.

It's exciting, but I don't see it being very useful to most printers in my opinion.   It depends on whether he can make it as good as all the new SSR stuff, haha!
"Science and invention benefited most of all from the printing press."   https://www.youtube.com/user/FullSpectrumVideo  ||  https://sellfy.com/planetaryprints

Offline inkman996

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2013, 08:10:29 AM »
So what happened to DDSol and drag and drop separations?
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Offline Full-SpectrumSeparator

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 08:54:27 AM »
I think Han is still putting the final touches on his Millenium Falcon drag-and-drop separator program...

I heard that it can make the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs!
"Science and invention benefited most of all from the printing press."   https://www.youtube.com/user/FullSpectrumVideo  ||  https://sellfy.com/planetaryprints

Offline inkman996

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 09:27:28 AM »
So Tom is copying DDSols idea?
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Offline GraphicDisorder

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 10:30:06 AM »
How many more months until the future (thats been coming for a minute now) is finally here?
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Offline starchild

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 10:51:54 AM »
Jeff that's my thoughts exactly.. That new taking apart images solution does not cater to screen printers unique and individual needs of a sepd image and the adjustments thAt will be needed on an image by image and screen printer by screen printer basis..

And if this does take off for the ones that do see a benefit to using it, is the math all javascript so it really happens exclusively in the users browser or is the operation done in the background? If latter would there be an infrastructure in place for concurrent connections?

Just the idea of, in my eyes jumping from simple seps, a far superior sep program (even beter than Separation Studio- yes I said that) to a solution where the builder clearly has never shown his understanding of screen printing, only weakens the proposition of simple seps. It just comes over as flaky..

Hmm if we could get 100 users to give us 10 dollars a day that's like 30gs a month.. Let's roll..

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »
So forget simple seps.. Browser seps is where it's at?

Definitely going to be interesting.

I think some people will want to work in the applications and others in the browser stuff it will be interesting to watch how all this unfolds. The browser based solution will most likely also have a standalone version.

What I am really interested in is the integration with OpenTshirts and client uploads as far as art is concerned. With tools like this you could go from the eCommerce order direct to separations, output and printing. It wouldn't work for every client upload, as we all know clients would be uploading the 72 DPI pixel compressed garbage but it would be applicable in some uploads.

Eventually this should evolve into a complete web based design to seps solution through the open source OpenTshirts project. That gives a new start up a place to get started in design and separation focused on screen printing.

I think at the same time making a tool/set of tools that are really easy to use, intuitive and have special functionality specifically for color separation will be interesting coming out of a browser. Instead of working around the tools in general applications the tools and features are color separation focused.

Pull standard or custom colors into a custom channel/layer set with each channel/layer having its own adjustment tools and properties. Opacity, Dot Gain, Levels, Curves etc giving you control over each color in the separation all developed on the needs of screen printers. But the key here again is, easy to use.

Ultimately this won't handle the vector stuff that SimpleSeps and SimpleSeps Over Printing do. Just the raster stuff.

Time will tell...

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 11:49:54 AM »
And if this does take off for the ones that do see a benefit to using it, is the math all javascript so it really happens exclusively in the users browser or is the operation done in the background? If latter would there be an infrastructure in place for concurrent connections?


The bulk of the math work actually comes out of gaming solutions and graphics/image processing. Javascript could do it but when you to get into really moving digital color around there are better solutions. OpenTshirts has been a project that I planned all along as eventually evolving into the full web based solution for screen printing. We have an open source design solution and it is e-commerce integrated this is just moving that platform forward.

Not stealing any ideas here been working on the open source web based design system for years now, with the eventual goal of soup to nuts online e-commerce and design solutions relating to screen printing, digital printing and custom products.

You can even look at solutions like http://pixlr.com/editor/ browser based.

I think IMHO in the not so far future allot of what we do will be browser based and we are seeing the evolution of that now in many other markets and industries.

I also believe that if we look back to the early 90s and back to today we can see how things have changed radically relating to printing and color. I believe we will see just as much change in the next 5 years as we have seen in the last 25 years. Much of which I believe will be due to the evolution of new technology through open source. Again these are just my opinions based on watching trends in technology but I think we can see allot of this just in the last couple of years.

Offline starchild

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 12:04:34 PM »
Tom I appreciate everything you're saying..

Just don't stretch yourself too thin bro..

You're the front man on a separation solution that has the possibility to have an impact but the time and resources needed to nurture it is spent on other endeavors.. That will be damaging to the lifecycle of not only simple seps but all other projects..

Offline Sbrem

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 03:52:23 PM »
Just the other day I was wondering where Tom had been; working apparently. I'm hoping over the winter to check out SSR for Photoshop (I'll never use Corel I don't think) I really like the thought provocation from his (and others') previous posts. After pretty much ignoring the bitching and whining (no one's in particular) there was a lot to take in and ponder, and I appreciate that. I just wish I had more time. Keep it up, Tom.

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Offline DDSol

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 01:55:57 AM »
Hi everyone!
I saw this cool thing that Tom did with that drop-down select!
It really is an awesome development.

To inkman: Yes, it seems as though Tom is attempting to copy my idea.

But, the crux is that it doesn't matter that the seps are in the browser. Where they are is irrelevant, as long as you can get access to them. Installed software is the fastest as it works with no downloading, which is the slowest system in your computer. Ease of access is something that could be named as a benefit to browser systems... but really, no screen printer is looking to quickly sep when they are at a friend's using their PC. Needing to install is a non-issue.

Moreover, the browser is a specialized piece of software that is meant to present and display, not calculate and run. Now, Google is trying to change that so that more and more things can run in the browser. There are benefits, sure, but Google mainly wants this so they can push their Chromebook/ChromeOS systems. They have ample clout, of course.

As for seps in the browser... I can't do it well. I can do it good enough to produce a smoking preview, that's actually accurate to boot, but the real seps get run on the server in my system. I'm sure Tom took his SimpleSeps and and bolted on a rudimentary web interface. That is an awesome idea. I wonder how he got it.

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter where you get your seps. It matters how good they are. It matter how long it takes you to get them, how easy it is to work that system and of course price. But that it's in a browser, plugin or dedicated app is not an interesting point, at least not until all seps systems become so equally high quality that it becomes the only differentiating factor.

We aren't there at this point. Right now we have a choice between plugins that run PS commands For You and one to three standalone programs that have some actual specialized sep code.

What I did, is I made a software that takes a brand new look at color separation.

Everyone is used to pulling colors. This is a bad paradigm. A color can be pulled 100 times. That's a problem. When I 'pull' a color, the color stays in the image. And I have a 'copy' (inaccurate copy) of it on a sep/film. There's nothing stopping me from re-pulling that color except maybe some common sense. But the common sense doesn't help me when I pull a purple and a red, and the purple pulls some red, and the red pulls some purple. I just puled purple-red twice. By how much? Nobody knows. It's not an accurate answer. It's a guess. It may work well, sure. Maybe good enough even, so we don't have to fuss about it.

But good enough and perfect are quite a separate idea.

Math doesn't make mistakes. So then it becomes the task of the scientist (Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Max Planck) to take the physical world, and model it in pure math. Then we can do calculations on the real world. In the screen printing realm, we're talking about inks and emulsion and light, which get modeled as vectors, reflectivity coefficients, partitive mixing math, and other such numbers and models and they become useful if we know how to run calculations on them.

So, there are several ways to get to a result. There's the common sense and trial-and-error approach, which get us amazingly close to our goal, whatever the goal is. It's how we learn how to walk. We try, fall, try some more, and before long we walk. It is also how the noob screen printer becomes a master separator. Trial. More trial. And a whole lot of error along the way.

Then there's the observational method. It's what Isaac Newton used when he devised his gravitational formulas. Pretty observant, this dude. He is one of the greats, for sure. Ultimately, he was proven wrong, however, because his perception was too coarse to find the subtle shifts caused by temporal distortions. And Einstein fixed that for him. Still, even Einstein wasn't quite right. Quantum mechanics has proven some of his ideas to be wrong, although his relativity theories have held up quite well. We can measure time shifts in airplanes with atomic clocks. As unintuitive as it seems that time isn't the time we thought it was, it apparently is true. We've measured it.

Now, the trial and error way will get you close every time, given enough trials and errors.

But math doesn't allow for error (unless it does, in which case it's very precise about the error indeed). The colors we see can and are often modeled in math. Numbers of amplitudes and frequencies. Perceptual models that describe how we see. Models of reflectivity, absorbency, refraction, fluorescence and phosphorescence to describe properties of inks and substrates.

Given the eye's ability to only distinguish between red, green and blue due to the 4 different light-sensitive cells in our retina, it is straight forward to model all colors as RGB. Some kind of RGB. Perceptual RGB or linear RGB. Numbers from 0-255 (8 bits) or from 0-1 (math). In any case, due to the 3 orthogonal variables, we can model it as a 3 dimensional 'space', the color space, which goes from 0 to 1 on all 3 axes, which makes a cube, the color cube. Awesome. We have a cube. Every printable color can be put int his cube. Alsmost. Fluorescent colors and phosphorescent colors can actually produce more green or purple than shines on it, for instance, therefore seeming to have >100% reflection. Oh well, let's forget about them.

So, we have these 3 numbers, R, G and B. They are a point inside the color cube. Let's say we want to do color separation on this thing (which we do, that's why we're here). We can simply look at the 3D cube, which is a thought, as there's no color cubes anywhere. They are impossible, physically. But we can think about them in that way. Now, if we want to separate a color into other colors, selected from a set (out inks), then we need to first decide which colors we'll use to make up this color. Essentially, what we're doing, is we're carving up the color cube into pieces. Each piece has Only colors in it that can be mixed with a certain subset of our inks. We can have a chunk of cube that will be mixed with red, white, yellow, and black ink. Perhaps we'll use it to make skin colors. We can have another chunk full of colors that can be mixed with green, blue, white and black. That could be the sky.

Note that what was separated here was not at all the image. Instead, it was the color space. Which color space? Well, the color space in which the image is represented. That'll probably be the sRGB color space. We chopped up this space into little chunks, each representing a set of inks we can use to mix those colors.

The next step would be to have some kind of formula, a function, really, that takes the description of a chunk and a color that we know is in that chunk, and then spits out the amounts that the inks of this chunk will need to be mixed in to make that color we want.

Once we have that, it becomes trivial to pump the colors through this system:
1) Determine the chunk
2) Determine the ink amounts for each ink in that chunk
3) Do some adjusting to account for ink order and some physical ink properties

And what we did is, we pushed the image into the system, and the system truly separated the image. This is diametrically opposed to pulling colors. With a pull, the seps are getting pulled from the image, instead of the image 'pushing' onto the seps. The main reason it's so very different is that the one pull cannot 'communicate' with the next pull. It cannot alert the pink pull that the red was already pulled. The pink will therefore re-pull the red.

In the chunk system, it's the chunker that decides what chunk a color should be in and the formula, which decides for the entire color what inks should be used, all at once. So all separations are done simultaneously, and not 'by the seps', but 'by the formula'.

Whether or not you follow my ramblings or even if you are interested, there's a philosophy behind it, which is nice to know.

I set out to take this idea of pure math precision, math with a real base for existing, based on vector math in the 3D cube, and a nifty cube carving algorithm, and build it into a real system. This has not been easy. The math is downright painful.

Nonetheless, I've managed to do it. I can therefore guarantee that before adjustments, the color mixes are absolutely accurate to 12 digits beyond the decimal point. Note that the final films have less than 3 digits (0-255 for grayscale seps). Most sep systems kind of guess at these numbers. A lot of trial and error went into it, and it has produced some amazing award winning shirts. But now it is time to no longer rely on great guessing, since now we have an absolute accurate system. All that remains is to make it extremely easy to use and to sharpen the physical model. That way we can translate back from mathelonian into highly accurate physical shirts. I think I've already done a great job, but we do need some more real prints to make adjustments.

In the mean time, if you need a sep, go here and get it for free. Highly accurate and no guarantees :). Over 60,000 lines of code I wrote myself. Over 4 years of work. This is not a gimmick, this is the real deal. I didn't stumble upon it, I didn't take it from anyone, I built it from the ground up with one purpose: to produce impeccable seps.

That said, if you have complaints, I'll see how I can improve the system. All you need to do is voice them. But note that there are currently a lot of features missing, so the bulk of complaints probably relate to these missing features.

Boy, this post is very long.

Offline Sbrem

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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 09:45:20 AM »
yes, it is long, but I liked reading it anyway. I dropped a file in there, and I wouldn't write home about the seps, but you did state that they would not be of optimal quality; so when do you think they may be?

Steve
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Re: The future of color separations
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 03:59:08 PM »
As for seps in the browser... I can't do it well. I can do it good enough to produce a smoking preview, that's actually accurate to boot, but the real seps get run on the server in my system. I'm sure Tom took his SimpleSeps and and bolted on a rudimentary web interface. That is an awesome idea. I wonder how he got it.

Months of research down in the guts of things like HTML5, Javascript, OpenGL, WebGL, and my personal favorite the ALL mighty UNDISPUTED Shaders. All of which can be programmed to run client side and not server side so they can run with the same power as a desktop application thru a browser. But for me the exciting part is the incredible speed with which these open source platforms are advancing, just breath taking. Rapid development frameworks and libraries are popping up all over the place. In fact, IMHO all of technology, programming, eCommerce and the internet is at the dawn of a historically significant technical reboot.

Going to be allot of new millionaires over the next 2 to 3 years that is for sure. Developing apps and software is going to get easier and faster then ever before especially in the arenas of games and graphics. Actually graphics is sort of getting the fall out of the gaming industry development.

Web 3.0 and Graphics 2.0 are on the horizon and moving fast.

This is in my opinion the best time in history to be a graphic designer with an understanding things like color and programming. All the of limitation brought on by other programs like Adobe and Corel are about to go out the window... As I have access to anything I want and super rapid development options that make something would have taken years in the past a matter of weeks in the now.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 05:20:51 PM by AdvancedArtist »